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Thread: A case of Darwinism at play

  1. #11
    Ent FishyFolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarMan View Post
    This is a perennial favourite for forums like this. And the answer is really tricky. The balance is between making walking to lovely places an elite sport that requires licences and permits and qualifications versus the ill prepared people who get themselves in trouble.

    I am off on a Stag weekend for my best mate in a few weeks, we are going to Princetown on Dartmoor for a walking weekend. There are 12 of us going, and over the years in various combinations, we have done over 100 mountain marathons, have all the qualifications Mountain Training offer, walked every area and high peak in the UK, 3 of us have won National level orienteering competitions, we will have on our backs rucksacks with every appropriate bit of kit that will keep us safe. We will walk whatever the weather does to us, but could we guarantee that we will all come back safe?

    Sometimes people say that rescue teams should be able to get the 'public' to sign a disclaimer and if they are poorly equipped the team doesn't have to go, but if they are properly equipped they will. That is arse about face for me. I have, and I am sure you will have as well, seen people with every conceivable item of kit under the moon, but not the slightest clue what to do with it all! They would get rescued, but it's wrong, it's not having the kit, it's knowing what to do with it. After all, when on a mountain marathon we carry tiny amounts of kit, look essentially very poorly prepared, but actually are some of the best prepared people in the outdoors that weekend!

    After many discussions on this subject over the years, I tend to come down on the side of letting people get on with it and educating if we get the chance. When we think of the amount of people who use the outdoors, rescues are actually extremely rare. It doesn't help that these rescues are often concentrated in small areas in whatever country you look at.
    On the most popular routes her ein Norway, they have to rescue people several times of week. Mostly it's people who are ill equipped for the place and conditions, or thay have an accident and injure themselves, or they simply are to exhausted to take care of themselves as they underestimate the difficulty of the route, and overestimate their own physical ability.

    The other type that has to be rescued happens mostly in winter, and is your type. People who have all the quallifications, have all the kit they feel they need, and knows how to use it. But they are so over confident in themselves and their abilities that they disregard all warnings and going up in the hills, even if all the warning lights are on, and everyone is screaming for them to stay off the hills due to avalanche danger. Last year alone at least ten people where killed in my county alone by avalanches. And if rescue teams deem it to dangerous to search for or fetch the bodies, they stay out there until spring...

    The team I am a member of (in a support role) we have had two rescue calls this summer. But we do not have any popular tourist trails here, so we only have to deal with the locals. One was a person who had fallen and sprained her ancle, so we sent out an ATV to bring her down to the road where an ambulance was waiting, and the other was a person who got lost in the fog in the mountains, but she managed to find a cabin where she could wait it out, so that was just a question of walking with her down the mountain.
    Victory awaits the one, that has everything in order - luck we call it
    Defeat is an absolute consequense for the one that have neglected to do the necessary preparations - bad luck we call it
    (Roald Amundsen)

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  2. #12
    Yeah, it's not easy.

    I will ignore the little dig about my over-confidence, well except to say that I have been walking and climbing, summer and winter, in all the mountains of the UK, the Alps and in Southern Germany when I was in the Army over there, for over 30 years and I am still here. So possibly reckless over-confidence is not something I am suffering from too much eh?

    You have also proved my point about rescues being concentrated in popular areas. In the UK, Snowdonia, the Cairngorms and the Lakes probably account for 80% of mountain rescue situations. Not many people know there are mountain rescue teams in Northamptonshire for example (I keep forgetting you aren't from the UK. Northamptonshire is a flat county, in the middle of the country, miles form any sea or mountains, and is possibly the most dull county in the UK). They get called mostly for missing persons and old folk wandering off into fields from care homes. On the Mendips where I live the Mountain Rescue team deal with a few people stuck up the Gorge each year, but their cave rescue buddies are often out and about, because we have lots of caves under the Mendips.

    So my answer would be as stated above, the overall benefit to individuals and to society, is to have people exercising and out and about experiencing the hills. If that means a few rescues by willing volunteers then I guess I am willing to pay that price, rather than restrict the great outdoors to people who can provide a portfolio of experience and qualifications and essentially pass a test.

    What would be your answer to this very tricky dilemma?
    Last edited by CheddarMan; 12-08-2016 at 09:33 AM. Reason: Additional Northamptonshire information

  3. #13
    Ent FishyFolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarMan View Post
    Yeah, it's not easy.

    I will ignore the little dig about my over-confidence, well except to say that I have been walking and climbing, summer and winter, in all the mountains of the UK, the Alps and in Southern Germany when I was in the Army over there, for over 30 years and I am still here. So possibly reckless over-confidence is not something I am suffering from too much eh?

    You have also proved my point about rescues being concentrated in popular areas. In the UK, Snowdonia, the Cairngorms and the Lakes probably account for 80% of mountain rescue situations. Not many people know there are mountain rescue teams in Northamptonshire for example. They get called mostly for missing persons and old folk wandering off into fields from care homes. On the Mendips where I live the Mountain Rescue team deal with a few people stuck up the Gorge each year, but their cave rescue buddies are often out and about, because we have lots of caves under the Mendips.

    So my answer would be as stated above, the overall benefit to individuals and to society, is to have people exercising and out and about experiencing the hills. If that means a few rescues by willing volunteers then I guess I am willing to pay that price, rather than restrict the great outdoors to people who can provide a portfolio of experience and qualifications and essentially pass a test.

    What would be your answer to this very tricky dilemma?
    I am not arguing with you, I came to the same conclusion as you several posts ago :-)
    Anyway right know they are out fetching the body of a base jumper...well they assume he is dead, and the body will probably have to wait a couple of days as the climb is too dangerous in the prevailing conditions.
    Victory awaits the one, that has everything in order - luck we call it
    Defeat is an absolute consequense for the one that have neglected to do the necessary preparations - bad luck we call it
    (Roald Amundsen)

    Bumbling Bushcraft on Youtube
    Nordisk Bushcraft - The Nordic bushcraft blog and forum

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by FishyFolk View Post
    I am not arguing with you, I came to the same conclusion as you several posts ago :-)
    Anyway right know they are out fetching the body of a base jumper...well they assume he is dead, and the body will probably have to wait a couple of days as the climb is too dangerous in the prevailing conditions.

    I have to admit, I secretly really fancy BASE jumping. I know it is the sport of lunatics, but what a hoot. In fact it should be in the Olympics!

  5. #15
    Woodsman Pootle's Avatar
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    I don't reckon many base jumpers get to be old!
    Personally I'm not inclined to restrict people's access for their own safety. I think adults should be treated as adults and allowed to judge for themselves what risks they're willing to take. We all get it wrong sometimes, and that can be tragic. But if only those who could afford training and potential rescue were allowed to take risks then I for one would be restricted to picnics in the park!
    Which is why the mountain rescue teams deserve such respect.

  6. #16
    Ent FishyFolk's Avatar
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    The reason we have volunteer mountain rescue is simple this: Most of them really enjoy being out there in the hills and mountains. And want everyone, regardless of skills and ability to be able to enjoy the same, while doing their best to make it a bit safer for everyone.

    That why we are in the hills during easter, which is a very popular week for Norwegians to go into the hills skiing. All the teams in Norway are in the hills that week to enable everyone elae to enjoy it out there, and be confident that if they injure themselves, there will be someone coming to help them.
    Victory awaits the one, that has everything in order - luck we call it
    Defeat is an absolute consequense for the one that have neglected to do the necessary preparations - bad luck we call it
    (Roald Amundsen)

    Bumbling Bushcraft on Youtube
    Nordisk Bushcraft - The Nordic bushcraft blog and forum

  7. #17
    Samuel Hearne happybonzo's Avatar
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    We used to take walks down the Samaria Gorge in Crete
    It's approximately 16kms long and even the "short" walk from the sea is 12kms - all under a baking Sun
    We've had women turn up in white stiletto shoes and have them throw a hissy fit when they were not allowed to enter the gorge
    The Scandinavians (ie German, Dutch, Norwegians, Finns, Swedes etc) always turned up with decent boots, water and a decent day pack
    The Brits used to turn up with a Sainsburys plastic bag with some Stella cans...
    Only my dog can judge me

    http://www.devilark.com.au/

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