They walk amongst us...

[saxonaxe]

Criticism for lost walker on Snowdon
A walker from Sussex wearing jeans and trainers is criticised for being ill-prepared after becoming lost in difficult conditions on Snowdon overnight.

January certified trainers and jeans obviously....

( BBC News website)

[NorthernYeti]

one of my friends (ex mountain rescue from snowdonia of 20+ years & alpine climber) found a family walking up snowdon last year in 5ft of snow with the kids in tracky bottoms and basic tesco style coats needless to say he went nuts seen some daft things up the "iils" but this photo takes the mick! the "MAD DAD" TAKING HIS SPROG UP SNOWDON IN A BLIZZARD!
11144

[FishyFolk]

Yeah, that is mad. The kid should be on skis!

[Silverback]

Can you please edit your language ?

Posts like this are done to death every time the news jumps on one. Said my bit before...can't be bothered to revisit it.

[jus_young]

Can you please edit your language ?

Posts like this are done to death every time the news jumps on one. Said my bit before...can't be bothered to revisit it.

Sorry Wayne, I edited before seeing your post.

[Silverback]

Sorry Wayne, I edited before seeing your post.

No probs in cases like this I like to ask the poster to edit before moderating

[bigpaul]

we see this every year on Dartmoor, Dad in trainers and jeans, Mother is strappy top and sandals, usually have to be air lifted off the moor with Hyperthermia or a sprained ankle or some such, people are idiots and must have had a "common sense" bypass at some time.

[Fraxinus]

They walk amongst us...

Since the beginning of mankind they have and almost certainly will continue to do so.

Accept it.

Just make sure you minimise the chances of joining their ranks by combining your skills set with common sense. Think about the needs of the group, and base the adventure on those of the least skilled/able members capabilities.

Knowing when not to go, when to turn back/ dig in for the duration or to ask for help before a situation gets too bad is not "failure", it is to live to try again and to succeed at that time.
Personal ego must be your last thought, 'cos it might be the last.
Don't make your own thoughtlessness put others at risk, family, friends or rescue personnel.

Rob.

[Midge_Fodder]

Ohhhh an absolute gem here, I was about quarter of the way up Ben Nevis. The weather was fair, bit chilly though. As you'll know there is always one, a woman in a skimpy dress and a pair of wedges totters by as I'm grabbing a drink and popping on my wooly hat. I wish I had a photo but to be honest you'd think it was a photoshop if you saw it. I'm waiting till I see someone dressed like that, going across striding edge on my way up Hellvelyn.

[happybonzo]

When I worked in Crete, we used to get people turning up to walk the Samaria Gorge (approx 18kms of very hard going) in trainers, flip-flops and the best was white high heels :)
The Germans, Bless their little cotton socks, would have boots, rucksacks and lots of "sensible things like water, full med kit etc
The Brits would usually have a Sainsburys carrier bag with some lager, crisps and some cigs in it :)

[Midge_Fodder]

See it makes you wonder whether or not it's tv in a lot of cases. How many times have you turned on the idiot box and seen some guy wearing a pair of trail runners tackling the wilderness. To us they are purpose designed, to John Smith they just look like a pair of trainers............. So off he trots in a pair of cream cargo shorts, silly white trainer socks and a pair of circa 1992 arrow squash shoes. Don't get me wrong I use some old gutties as driving shoes but they never see the rough stuff. Possibly the Gravel in the car park before the boots come out the boot....... Oh and for when I can't be bothered lacing up my boots if I need a leak in the night.

[Bernie]

They walk amongst us...

Since the beginning of mankind they have and almost certainly will continue to do so.

Accept it.

Just make sure you minimise the chances of joining their ranks by combining your skills set with common sense. Think about the needs of the group, and base the adventure on those of the least skilled/able members capabilities.

Knowing when not to go, when to turn back/ dig in for the duration or to ask for help before a situation gets too bad is not "failure", it is to live to try again and to succeed at that time.
Personal ego must be your last thought, 'cos it might be the last.
Don't make your own thoughtlessness put others at risk, family, friends or rescue personnel.

Rob.

Brilliant; just absolutely perfect. Well put Rob.

[Silverback]

Sits and waits for the customary...'Make them pay for the cost of the rescue..blah,blah...tax payers nmoney, blah, blah, blah'. Sigh

[Fraxinus]

When I worked in Crete, we used to get people turning up to walk the Samaria Gorge (approx 18kms of very hard going) in trainers, flip-flops and the best was white high heels :)
The Germans, Bless their little cotton socks, would have boots, rucksacks and lots of "sensible things like water, full med kit etc
The Brits would usually have a Sainsburys carrier bag with some lager, crisps and some cigs in it :)

Ah yes, know it well, I must have looked very Germanic. :D

Cheers Bernie.

Sapper:- no one is going to be that silly, are they?

Rob.

[Silverback]

Rob...yup !

[Ehecatl]

I was once descending Snowdon heading back to the Llanberis Pass. The weather wasn't great and on the way up I had encountered lady with push chair that perhaps would have been better on an alternative route - anyway I digress. :off-topic:

A chap asked me "What's it like up the top?". I explained that I didn't think it was very nice and was borderline dangerous since it [the weather] was getting worse. He thanked me and I carried on my way down. Twenty minutes later he caught me up (I had also been to the top of Ben Nevis and Scafel Pike previously so my legs weren't at their best). He said that he had gone further and thought about what I had said. Since he'd been to the top many times before he decided that he would abandon his summit attempt and would enjoy it another time on a nicer day. Sensible chap.

Not everyone is a turnip but, there are indeed plenty that walk among us. Rob quite rightly refers to "common sense". I'm led to believe that it is called that since the "common" bit means it can be applied everywhere but unfortunately that's not always the case.

M@

[Midge_Fodder]

Aye often I've decided that a bar lunch is better than possible hypothermia in the fells when I go to the lakes. If only many other people had that idea a lot of people would be alive now. I think sometimes an element of bravado is around, some think that the experienced will shun them for not making it. As we all know actually experience tells us that not doing it is the sometimes best decision. I've helped many people as I'm a first aider, no level of experience can stop some accidents, but there's no excuses for being ill equipped and I'll informed.

[FishyFolk]

I am up in the hills all the time wearing sneakers. It's all depending on what weather I am expecting... and time of year of course.

[Midge_Fodder]

Depend a lot on the trainers though, are we talking trail runners or are we talking a pair of converse all stars here

[FishyFolk]

They are what I would refer to as "jogging shoes" when i grew up...
Admittedly they do have a membrane...but that is only because they where on sale the day I needed a new pair of "jogging shoes"

[Midge_Fodder]

I have a set of New Balance trail runners I use when I'm walking the dog but I wouldn't trust them where I camp, it goes from boggy to borderline alpine very quickly. They make great approach shoes though.

[Silverback]

SF troops are wearing civvy lightweight hiking boots and approach shooes on ops in the Afghan mountains...fell runners wear trainers...and there's a famous pic of a Selous Scout in adidas plimsolls during the angolan war.....common denominator hardcore ankles

[FishyFolk]

Maybe I have those hardcore ancles. Never seriously twisted mine. But trainers are a commn sight in the hills up there. And it can be very boggy. But the trails are usually dry, unless it's raining.
In winter and on rainy days i use my leather boots.

Maybe it's a childhood in wellies that has hardened my ancles :-)
Thats what everyone was wearing. And the ski boots of my childhood did not support the ancles at all, not to mention my skates. Actually the first time I ever wore boots that supported my ancles where in the army...

My reason for wearing boots have more to do with keeping feet warm and dry than with support...

[Midge_Fodder]

I remember my wellie wearing days well, awful things but don't half keep the slurry off your feet. It always cracks me up when I see a thread what's the best wellie boots, answer is none varying prices equal level of crap performance lol. But back on topic if man had went barefoot for millennia, we don't actually need shoes, but it's a matter of sensibility if your going out to carry some basic supplies at least just incase.

[FishyFolk]

The only time I wear a pair of wellies these days is to get in and out of my boat with feet dry...
Well...that also over as they now have a leak...and *I ain't buying a new pair.

[simonc]

Hey Midge, beleive it or not a few years ago I was watching a TV program about the Lake District and on camera a couple came across striding edge in windy wet weather, wearing trainers, shorts and tshirts and, and yes you've got it, the good old carrier bag. There was a guy from mountain rescue talking to the camera, he glanced over and saw them and with a look of horror ran over to them and went absolutely barmy. When he came back to the camera he explain how these people had come right across striding edge and they just could not see what was his problem. At that time I had only been to the Lake District once myself and so was very new to that sort of terrain, even so was aware what to be wearing.
I was in front of the telly going absolutly mad, they make me seeth. AAAAAARRRRRHHHHH!!!
Cheers buddy
Simon

[FishyFolk]

Here in troms County the avalanche danger level is now at level 4. The second highest (There are 5 levels).
Yet so far this weekend we have 1 killed and several missing in avalanches, because idiots keep going up in the hills where the danger is highest.
This while the media is screaming about the conditions out there. We have had two polar depression storms in one week, heavy rain and sleet, combined with the start of the snow melt...
You breath loudly out there, it will set one off...

[Midge_Fodder]

Hey Midge, beleive it or not a few years ago I was watching a TV program about the Lake District and on camera a couple came across striding edge in windy wet weather, wearing trainers, shorts and tshirts and, and yes you've got it, the good old carrier bag. There was a guy from mountain rescue talking to the camera, he glanced over and saw them and with a look of horror ran over to them and went absolutely barmy. When he came back to the camera he explain how these people had come right across striding edge and they just could not see what was his problem. At that time I had only been to the Lake District once myself and so was very new to that sort of terrain, even so was aware what to be wearing.
I was in front of the telly going absolutly mad, they make me seeth. AAAAAARRRRRHHHHH!!!
Cheers buddy
Simon

The best of it is that ridge has claimed lives of some of the best out there. The lakes just last winter alone killed at least 5 people.

[FishyFolk]

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t31.0-8/1622304_10151935059441059_1073714220_o.jpgThis is the breach edge of an avalanche set off today by experts here in Troms county. Imagine the weight of that coming down. The breach was 4 meters high in some places...

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t31.0-8/1622304_10151935059441059_1073714220_o.jpg

[Midge_Fodder]

Aye the chances of surviving an avalanche are slim to none, I still remember Glen Coe last year. 5 experienced mountaineers killed by an avalanche up there. It's not as common here but still possible. Although this year was unseasonably mild on average we are getting far colder, snowier winters, this just puts the chances up.

[susannewilliams]

The only time I wear a pair of wellies these days is to get in and out of my boat with feet dry...
Well...that also over as they now have a leak...and *I ain't buying a new pair.

Trainers are awesome. Trail running shoes even better. We had a great scene in the Alps once.

Walshes (fell running shoes)
Lightweight shells
Lightweight shoe spikes in the bag
Trekking poles
Headtorches
SACKit

Basically mountain running gear - full deal

But...

To the untrained eye we looked like deathtrap tourists...

So we had spent the day running in snow/ice/steep scree... at 2500meters plus

We came down in the evening - darkening gloom. Plenty of snow.

So we arrived in the forecourt of a mountain hut and were changing.

The mountain hut guardian came storming out...

Him: - "Where the hell did you come from?"

Us: - From up there...

Him: - Where the hell are you going?

Us: - Down there..

Him - looking us up and down - WAHNSINNNIGEN. (CRAZY PEOPLE)

He started to jump up and down about how late it was, and so on. But as he started to really look at us, he started to see that we were in fact fully equipped. Better than most heavily laden "alpine-walkers" that he sees coming through his halls.

So his volume reduced and his scowl became a smile as he wondered back inside muttering and ready to tell his buddies inside about the crazy people outside.

For me - I was very glad he came out to see to us. And very glad he was outraged to see people in trainers.

But - some of us really CAN be safe like that.

:-)

SACKit - Staying Alive Cold Kit - http://www.lightningpath.co/blog/2012/2/15/staying-alive-pocket-sized.html

[susannewilliams]

Aye the chances of surviving an avalanche are slim to none, I still remember Glen Coe last year. 5 experienced mountaineers killed by an avalanche up there. It's not as common here but still possible. Although this year was unseasonably mild on average we are getting far colder, snowier winters, this just puts the chances up.

Masses of avalanche danger in the alps this season.

Even hikers / climbers are starting to wear Avalanche Airbags...

98% survival for people caught in avalanches wear an airbag.

It's the way to go.

Period.

http://www.evo.com/promos/upload/KBIs/ABS_Visual_avalanche_comparison.jpg

[Midge_Fodder]

It's the shock I'd worry about. If you end up with shock your core temperature will drop and your likely to end up hypothermic.

[susannewilliams]

It's the shock I'd worry about. If you end up with shock your core temperature will drop and your likely to end up hypothermic.

You mean in an avalanche?

Suffocation within 10 mins is the first concern
Blunt force trauma next
Then hypothermia...

:-)

Really a horror show all around.

[Midge_Fodder]

I was meaning using an air bag.

[FishyFolk]

It's the shock I'd worry about. If you end up with shock your core temperature will drop and your likely to end up hypothermic.

Blunt trauma takes out a lot. They get smashed against rocks and trees or simply crushed by the same...

[susannewilliams]

I was meaning using an air bag.

The airbag is really quite good as an armor as well as flotation.

Depending on the model they protect your head/neck very well.


http://youtu.be/veW3XNt0SZY

[Midge_Fodder]

Are they self inflating like my fishing vest?

[susannewilliams]

Blunt trauma takes out a lot. They get smashed against rocks and trees or simply crushed by the same...

Staying above the debris really helps...

But man....bad bad scene.

In the Alps they teach avalanche awareness at school.

:-)

[susannewilliams]

Are they self inflating like my fishing vest?

Yeah. You pull the trigger. And for some models they can be remotely triggered.

A person can trigger all the airbags of the whole group for instance.

[Midge_Fodder]

See my fly vest has a pressure valve if there is a change in pressure like hitting water it blows itself up. Sort of like a car air bag. I wonder if the manufacturers have considered that technology as viable. But remote sensors sound pretty cool.

[susannewilliams]

See my fly vest has a pressure valve if there is a change in pressure like hitting water it blows itself up. Sort of like a car air bag. I wonder if the manufacturers have considered that technology as viable. But remote sensors sound pretty cool.

The conditions that happen when an avalanche lets loose are so chaotic that I think a pressure change sensor would be hard to do.

Sometimes you are on a slab that starts moving. (Vast majority of avalanches are triggered by the person themselves) To the airbag sensor this is nothing different than normal skiing, but you need to trigger RIGHT AWAY...
Sometimes you get hit from above by an avalanche that is already moving (much less frequent)

Also a G-force/kinetic sensor would not be so great because skiers are often jumping down cliffs and such and subject to pretty heavy shocks.

Pressure does not build up until it is too late. The snow moves like wet concrete and you end up sinking into it. Then it sets like concrete and you have 10-15 mins to live. Hopefully your buddies are able to get down to you, switch on their beacons, find you, dig you out from under 1-2 TONS of snow. All in 10-15mins.

Yak. It just doesn't bear thinking about.


http://youtu.be/Tbuk9AyEap8

[Midge_Fodder]

No it's more like an air bladder if the bladder is compressed in any way it triggers the gas to fill it up. They use it on oil Riggs for life jackets ect.

[FishyFolk]

Staying above the debris really helps...

But man....bad bad scene.

In the Alps they teach avalanche awareness at school.

:-)

We learned it in school here as well. And I received a lot of training on it in the army. I was in right after the Vassdal avalanche that killed half a platoon, 16 soldiers on excercise. They where ordered into an unsafe valley...and taken by an avalanche...
if it was safe to enter an area, and could refuse, with no consequenses...

But the only kit we had was spades for digging snow profile trenches, and a 5 meter rope to tie around your waste to help find you if you where caught in an avalanche.
But that was back in 1989. Things have changed since then.

[susannewilliams]

No it's more like an air bladder if the bladder is compressed in any way it triggers the gas to fill it up. They use it on oil Riggs for life jackets ect.

Same principle in the air bag. Co2 cartridge. (same type in fact)
Just no sensor for triggering it.
Manual or per remote control.

[susannewilliams]

We learned it in school here as well. And I received a lot of training on it in the army. I was in right after the Vassdal avalanche that killed half a platoon, 16 soldiers on excercise. They where ordered into an unsafe valley...and taken by an avalanche...
if it was safe to enter an area, and could refuse, with no consequenses...

But the only kit we had was spades for digging snow profile trenches, and a 5 meter rope to tie around your waste to help find you if you where caught in an avalanche.
But that was back in 1989. Things have changed since then.

Haha - Yes. I skied with a 30 meter cord with big red inflated ball dragging behind me....

Yikes.

http://cache-cdn.kalaydo.de/mmo/4/462/650/04_1651229699.jpg

[FishyFolk]

Well, well, as I was loading the 3 year old into the car at his daycare, wich also is a good place to park for people going into my hills, there was a man there off loading mountain skis, and back pack, obviously heading up into the hills.

I said hi, and asked him if he knew the conditions up there.
Do you mean the weather he asked.

So I tell him about the avalanche conditions...we are stll at level 4. Right now we have beutiful sunshine, wit a nice layer of powder, but on top of a very unstable hard layer...
He says not to worry, he has all the kit. And goes on to show it to me, and give me a lecture on how experienced he is...fine. It's up to him...I excuse myself and let him go on with his business...
As I walk back to the car, we hear the rumble of an avalanche up in the hils, and see i snow cloud near the top, where he planned to go up and ski from...
...the man looks at it, and throws his pack back into the car, and drives off...

[blacksmith]

I grew up in Africa and it was drilled into you that if you go into the bush you are on your own, if you get in trouble you have to get yourself out of trouble. You soon learnt think before you acted. Even driving in Africa you can be 2-300 miles from the nearest help. People in this country seem to think that if they get into trouble some hero will come and save them and that's why some of them die!! Lack of self reliance.:o