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f0rm4t
15-10-2013, 08:57 AM
I've now applied for my shotgun licence and I'm prospecting a new gun.
Went down to my local dealer for look and some advice.

I've been looking at the Beretta Silver Pigeon and the Browning 525. But these aren't really guns we can all (myself and my boys) use, and will probably be my 2nd gun once I've proved to myself I'm serious about it. (they come with a price tag)

So for a first gun, I've been advised to get a new semi-auto, as the price will be low, it'll have a warranty, we'll all be able to shoot it, it will be new, so I don't have to worry it's had a few thousand rounds down it, and I'll be able to use it for both clay and a informal pigeon shoots.

So...
I've been looking at and advised to consider the Hatsan Escort Semi-auto 12 gauge.
Not sure on a new semi or a used under over shotgun?

Any advice welcome :)
T^

Big T
15-10-2013, 10:39 AM
Been looking at these too, seem to be a "marmite" gun but from what I can see they are excellent value for money!

Silverback
15-10-2013, 12:00 PM
I have a Hatsan Air rifle...like you say Marmite guns...but its well made, accurate and does the job...bit heavy but then again the first rifle i fired was a .303 Mk4 No1 - everything is relative ;)

ratcatcher
15-10-2013, 12:16 PM
having owned the older hatstand (that's what they get called) I'd say, for the price they are worth it, the new style ones are easier to load than the old version, if it has a button on the side that needs pressing to load cartridges, its the old style,
sometimes you can get them jamming, that's normally down to the length and load of the cartridge, mine used to jam on any carts under 67mm in length, but the new ones may be different, with such a cheap gun, you wont be scared of getting it dirty, which is a bonus, mine would be out in all weathers, covered in rain,snow,mud and blood and carried on shooting, if you buy that silver pigeon, it'll only come out the cabinet on sunny days

sometimes clay grounds frown about semi's, especially hatstands, as you cant tell whether its loaded or not, where as with an o/u it can be carried open

shepherd
15-10-2013, 02:36 PM
iv shot my bosses silver pigeon on many occasions and i love it... great all round gun

Sylvanbilly
15-10-2013, 03:09 PM
IMO
I'd stay away from semi auto's especially for your first gun and especially if you intend to teach your sons, the biggest factor is safety for yourselves and others, everybody looks at everybody with a gun and doesn't trust anybody, if that makes sense, an O/U or a side by side should do, you don't say how old your sons are? But if they are strapping lads they should be ok with a 12 gauge and a light cartridge load (28g) You want to be looking for maybe a multi choke sporter so you can use it for clays and game,
Bill

f0rm4t
15-10-2013, 03:28 PM
Cheers fellas!
I don't want to be spending more than 500 for my first gun really. The uo and ss guns I like are 1000 ++ but do appreciate the benefits of getting one.

As said, my hurdles are identifying the latter that is in budget, a reliable brand, an all rounder, that I can be happy hasn't had a couple of thousand rounds through it. If I can meet this criteria then I'll be sold, so if you have recommendations, i'd be a happy bunny ...or pigeon.

Sylvanbilly
15-10-2013, 03:39 PM
Look up bettinsoli shotguns,they are good reasonable starter guns, I've still got one actually, try second hand ones as well,

ratcatcher
15-10-2013, 04:39 PM
YILDIZ are good value for money

Sar-ian
15-10-2013, 06:05 PM
Hi Paul, choosing a shotgun is very subjective, a gun that suits me, might not suit you.... I've spent a small fortune on a gun, only to find it didn't work for me.
As for buying a gun I would say buy the best you can afford, as quality counts, and should you ever want to sell it, you would get a better re-sale price.

There are quiet a few premium brands, personally I like Miroku and Browning shotguns. The fit and finish is excellent, and although the initial out-lay maybe more, I've never had any major issues with them, but the most important factor is I can actually hit things... and thats what counts.... and if care for and cherished, they will out last you.....

I've seen folk buy "cheap" guns and hate them, and its actually put them off shooting, I would recommend going to a large game fair, there is usually a shotgun coach there and they can advise you, and it may be possible to try a few different guns, and give you some pointers on safety and technique.

I love shooting, be warned it can get additive, I hope this helps.......... cheers Ian....

Rasputin
15-10-2013, 06:38 PM
imo
i'd stay away from semi auto's especially for your first gun and especially if you intend to teach your sons, the biggest factor is safety for yourselves and others, everybody looks at everybody with a gun and doesn't trust anybody, if that makes sense, an o/u or a side by side should do, you don't say how old your sons are? But if they are strapping lads they should be ok with a 12 gauge and a light cartridge load (28g) you want to be looking for maybe a multi choke sporter so you can use it for clays and game,
bill

+1 t^

treefrog
15-10-2013, 09:23 PM
Don't know what the hunting scene is over there or if you plan to hunt, but the gas operated semi-autos over here are largely
disliked for their temperamental behaviour in wet and cold. Doubles and pump actions interest you at all?

Rasputin
15-10-2013, 10:01 PM
Don't know what the hunting scene is over there or if you plan to hunt, but the gas operated semi-autos over here are largely
disliked for their temperamental behaviour in wet and cold. Doubles and pump actions interest you at all?

Can only have 2 shot auto on shotgun licence, for multi shot auto you need a full firearms certificate in the UK

happybonzo
16-10-2013, 05:56 AM
First shotgun? Don't buy a semi auto has got to be the best advice. For one thing, they're damned heavy when they're chock full of cartridges :(

Also, a lot of shoots will not allow you to use their land. None of the Shoots near me will allow them.

Have a look for an O/U, they are around at sensible money. Have a look on Guntrader*

Personally, I prefer to see people learn with a single barrel 12 bore or similar. My Greener GP was the best gun I've ever owned

You mention your sons learning to shoot? How old are they and, not wanting to be picky, unpleasant and all the other things that things posted can end up as, are you competent to teach them? If you have any doubts, then a couple of lessons at decent Shooting School can stop a life time of bad habits before they start:) I was lucky in that I was brought up around Guns and shooting in general. I had my first Shotgun aged 8, a non name Belgian .410 single

I see that there are plenty of Baikels on Guntrader for sensible money at the moment: Nothing wrong with them, a bit crude but they got the job done as Mr Fox found out only the other day :)



* When you do, you'll a lot of Hatsans for sale and that should tell you everything

O/Us on Guntrader (http://www.guntrader.co.uk/Guns-For-Sale/results.php?fetch=Results&Filter[NewType][]=Shotgun&Filter[NewMechanism][]=Over%20and%20Under&Filter[Calibre][]=12%20gauge&perPage=30&sortField=Price&sortOrder=asc)

f0rm4t
16-10-2013, 09:27 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. I do want a o/u but won't pick up a new one for my budget. I don't want to buy an old dog, and was advised by my local gun dealer at country ways guns to get a new semi as they are reliable, good value for money, have a three year warrantee and will be more suitable for all of us.

In answer to questions my boys are 15 and 13 and have shot several times. My eldest is a fine shot (25 for 25 last week) and 12 gauge comfortable. My youngest is now able to handle a 12 gauge too. We have all shot several times but no, I'm no instructor. We have lessons at our club, JJ Clay. They are fine with a semi, as is the pigeon shoot I'm part of. I know I won't be able attend a walked up or driven pheasant shoot, but at several hundred pounds each, it ain't happening. Ha!

If I can find a quality used o/u, then I'm in, otherwise i may have to consider a semi.

Thanks again fellas.

Ehecatl
17-10-2013, 07:08 PM
Paul, another source of information would be Terry (of Yalding fame). He does clays and real pigeons and I think he goes to a clay club on Sunday mornings which isn't too far from us. I can put you to in touch if you wish....

M@

f0rm4t
17-10-2013, 07:51 PM
Paul, another source of information would be Terry (of Yalding fame). He does clays and real pigeons and I think he goes to a clay club on Sunday mornings which isn't too far from us. I can put you to in touch if you wish....

M@

Top man Matt, ping him my number & email address when you get a moment. It would be good to get his opinion. Terry's got an O/U, but his mate had that 5 shot semi-auto we shot at the last Yalding meet.

How you getting on Matt? Got a move date yet? You'll be missed next weekend pal!

Ehecatl
17-10-2013, 08:09 PM
Will do. Seeing him Sat at Plus 1's.

Working out of Walsgrave at the moment staying in Nuneaton. Commute is awe sum. Gutted I can't make the meet but oh-um there'll be others. Should be moving in the next 4-6 weeks.

f0rm4t
17-10-2013, 08:11 PM
Will do. Seeing him Sat at Plus 1's.

Working out of Walsgrave at the moment staying in Nuneaton. Commute is awe sum. Gutted I can't make the meet but oh-um there'll be others. Should be moving in the next 4-6 weeks.

Magic.
Say hi to Mike for me too mate!

KaiTheIronHound
18-10-2013, 10:00 AM
+1 for not getting a semi. Single barrel, SxS or U/O are your best bets. I personally shoot field and game clay target and i hunt with 12 bores, and my preference in both is the SxS, for the lighter carry. That said, the lighter gun does boot more. Honestly, i have shot comp shoots with a nigh on 100 year old SxS with exposed hammers and a duel trigger with a fixed full choke. That thing is a farm gun, the bloke i borrowed it from on more than 1 occasion got it from his father, who got it from his father. It must have had thousands of rounds put through it in its life, and being a farm gun in Australia means the thing has probably trekked more miles than rounds its had through it. Still shoots sweet, never had an issue with it. :)

Bushdoctor
18-10-2013, 01:51 PM
Beretta would be my choice. Ive had a 686s which is the old silver pigeon for more than 20 years and have shot clays,game and wildfowl with it in all weathers without any problems at all,
they are close to indestructable. Good 2nd hand ones are on the market for around 600-700 and they hold their value well if you decide to sell later. semi-autos are too tempremental I have
seen one belonging to a mate of mine (a top make) jam up on a grass seed, plus they are not trusted because they can not easily be seen to be safe.

Old Guard
18-10-2013, 05:20 PM
10573

Never mind Semi-Auto's ... try one of these :happy-clapping:

FishyFolk
19-10-2013, 08:42 PM
A good cheap work horse of a shotgun is the Star Bajkal 27 O/U 12 gauge . Mine has a single trigger and auto ejectors. But I was lucky enough to have a gun smith capable of fitting the stock for me ammong my mates :-)

Anyway, it's cheap, and if you are good to it, all kinds of weather is no problem.

mr.punch
20-10-2013, 08:56 AM
I have semi's o/u and s/s the one I use most is the semi very low recoil, yep shooting mates can get a it paranoid but I am a trusted shot and when not using it I always put a safety flag in which is bright orange and they can see it's not loaded. I do not walk up shoot in company with it too often as I prefer the s/s for this but for pigeon decoying I don't think you can beat a semi.

shepherd
20-10-2013, 10:41 AM
10573

Never mind Semi-Auto's ... try one of these :happy-clapping:


haha love it OG!

Ehecatl
20-10-2013, 11:42 AM
Terry tried to contact you last night (even though you insisted he was Graham! :happy-clapping:) Think he wanted to see if you could make his Sunday clay club and to talk about shooty bang bangs (guns).

M@

f0rm4t
20-10-2013, 04:06 PM
Ha! Yeah he did, I was half cut in the with some pals in town. I thought it was another another shooter mate Graham.
Spoke to Terry today and he's kingly offered to take me down his club, the resident dealer will let me shoot a selection of guns to see what fits.

Nice one Mat!
T^

f0rm4t
20-10-2013, 04:09 PM
These have good reviews for a first gun.

Browning Medallist
http://www.gunstar.co.uk/browning-medallist-12-bore-gauge-shotgun-for-sale-in-herefor/Shotguns/504826


Beretta Silver Pigeon S
http://www.gunstar.co.uk/beretta-silver-pigeon-s-12-bore-gauge-shotgun-for-sale-in-co/Shotguns/510499

Ehecatl
20-10-2013, 04:15 PM
Result!

Paul at Terry's club --> :war:

f0rm4t
20-10-2013, 04:17 PM
Result!

Paul at Terry's club --> :war:

Ha!

Iamnoone
22-10-2013, 10:11 PM
I was in a similar position to you a couple of years back. I wanted to get back into Clay Shooting and take my son, who was 12 at the time.

Taking the shop's advice I bought a 20 bore Webley Semi Auto for him to use based on the theory that the semi's action would soften the recoil, it was relatively small, and fitted him quite well.... This turned out to be a major mistake!
In reality it wouldn't cycle light loaded cartridges, 28 gram minimum. Couple that with it being a lightweight gun and he was getting more recoil than my 12 bore. Furthermore 20 bore cartridges are considerably more expensive than 12's because they're less common, and Semi Auto's are a pain in the butt to clean properly.

It wan't long before I was back in the shop to switch it for a conventional action 12 bore for him. And there followed an annoying irony! The shop wasn't keen to take the 20 bore semi back because it would be hard to resell! Lesson learned! Get advise from someone who isn't trying to sell you something!
I ended up getting him a 12 bore Silver Sable side by side. That's a bit unconventional for clay shooting but it's small, fits him well, it's a doddle to clean and he loves it.
Don't be worried that a 12 bore will be too much for your kids straight away, you can get light 21 gram cartridges which are really cheap and shoulder friendly.

As for me. I went for a Browning White Lightning. I tossed between that and a Silver Pigeon but the Browning just seemed to fit me better, despite them apparently having exactly the same dimensions? Both brands are really good, but make sure whatever you choose fits you well.

Hope that helps and I'm not too late. Happy shooting!

f0rm4t
21-12-2013, 07:12 PM
Licence came through the letterbox yesterday. That's a very quick turn around from what I've heard. Gun shopping in the New Year then. :)

Rasputin
21-12-2013, 07:31 PM
Licence came through the letterbox yesterday. That's a very quick turn around from what I've heard. Gun shopping in the New Year then. :)

they've had my renewal for over 2 mnths they phoned the other day asked a couple of Q's and said they will send it out. still waiting !:mad:

f0rm4t
21-12-2013, 07:33 PM
they've had my renewal for over 2 mnths they phoned the other day asked a couple of Q's and said they will send it out. still waiting !:mad:

Which force?

Rasputin
21-12-2013, 07:42 PM
Which force?

West Mercia/Worcester

f0rm4t
21-12-2013, 07:48 PM
West Mercia/Worcester

Bummer!
My force is Kent, Two months for a new licence is pretty quick as I understand. But a pal in Essex has been waiting a lot longer.
Hope your renewal gets sorted soon!

Rasputin
21-12-2013, 08:07 PM
Its sorted, just waiting for it in the post, I think they like to show you they've got ya by the short and curlys

Ehecatl
22-12-2013, 07:20 PM
Licence came through the letterbox yesterday. That's a very quick turn around from what I've heard. Gun shopping in the New Year then. :)

Terry is still more than happy to take you to his club. Afterwards he'll take you to his shooting club if you want too!

f0rm4t
22-12-2013, 07:32 PM
Terry is still more than happy to take you to his club. Afterwards he'll take you to his shooting club if you want too!

Very kind ...I think
I'm going to John Forsey in Welling tomorrow for a cheeky look. Might take a few guns up to JJ's to see what fits.

Rasputin
23-12-2013, 11:15 AM
Bummer!
My force is Kent, Two months for a new licence is pretty quick as I understand. But a pal in Essex has been waiting a lot longer.
Hope your renewal gets sorted soon!

It came this morning, so thats it for another 5 years :guns:

happybonzo
23-12-2013, 12:39 PM
But a pal in Essex has been waiting a lot longer.

Tell him to join BASC. They would get their legal team on that quicker than a tramp on chips

BASC LINKY (http://basc.org.uk/)

f0rm4t
23-12-2013, 01:45 PM
Tell him to join BASC. They would get their legal team on that quicker than a tramp on chips

BASC LINKY (http://basc.org.uk/)

Cheers HB. I'll pass on your advice.

rawfish111
23-12-2013, 10:29 PM
What Ian said + remember Sappers advice ... its all subjective.

I've used all kinds of kit from a single barrel 410 through bolt action guns (410 again) to 12 bore UO/SS/Pump/Semi Auto through all the kit I used in the army and it really is horses for courses. I would not advise against semi auto for a first gun as we have certain laws in the UK as I'm sure you are aware and there are advantages with only having the one barrel to think about it is the outlook and training one takes on that makes the difference.

ATM I have a couple of SS and OU guns but thinking of part exing them for a Remington semi as its a nice all rounder.

Whatever you decide enjoy!

PS... next thread your first rifle?

midas
07-01-2014, 05:02 PM
IMO
I'd stay away from semi auto's especially for your first gun and especially if you intend to teach your sons, the biggest factor is safety for yourselves and others, everybody looks at everybody with a gun and doesn't trust anybody, if that makes sense, an O/U or a side by side should do, you don't say how old your sons are? But if they are strapping lads they should be ok with a 12 gauge and a light cartridge load (28g) You want to be looking for maybe a multi choke sporter so you can use it for clays and game,
Bill
IMO...I think they would be better off with a semi auto.They are far easier to set up the stock to suit !with some manufacturers offering a youth package.ie two butstocks.The action also absorbes some of the recoil!Semi autos,pump actions are no more or less safe!!if correct safety practices are observed!!in some cases they are safer,ie in a pigeon hide ,they are safer to reload,and much easier to keep the barrel pointing in the right direction.As for been relliable,my Berretta391 and Hatsan MPA often have 500 shells(10 peoplex50cartridges.) each through them on a corperate day,without missing a beat.
P.s.If you wish to engage in organised game shooting or join a syndicate(unless its your land ,n your Lord of the Manor),other than clay shooting,vermin/pest control,and a little informal "hunting!!Then you will require an O/U or S by S.

midas
07-01-2014, 05:15 PM
Can only have 2 shot auto on shotgun licence, for multi shot auto you need a full firearms certificate in the UK
INCORRECT,3 shots,1 cartridge in chamber,2 in magazine.on SGC.

midas
07-01-2014, 05:28 PM
Its sorted, just waiting for it in the post, I think they like to show you they've got ya by the short and curlys
You are paying for a service!If that service is not provide,effiently.Then complain and write to the Chief Constable n point out that one of his departments ie Firearms is not performing as it should.!!moost people are reluctant to do this thinking it willl effect their certificatate.It will you n others will get dealt with quicker if these inafficiency are brought to CC n MP's attention!
Also belonging to an association.ie Scotish Association of Country Sports which provides a completelegal protection Insurance,better than any of the others.Helps in case of any problems.

f0rm4t
09-02-2014, 05:44 PM
:jumping-joy:

Happy boy.
I'm now the proud owner of a 12 Gauge O/U Rizzini Marcheno.

Terry set me up with his gun smith, who did me a nice deal for my first gun.

Just wanted to give my heart felt thanks to everyone for taking the time to share their thoughts with me on this. In the end I decided against a semi, in line with the opinion of many of you. So thanks again!!!
T^

113621136311364

Ehecatl
09-02-2014, 08:27 PM
:jumping-joy:

Dazza190
10-02-2014, 07:22 PM
Very nice! See you tested it out at Hawley too! How did it shoot, was they loading those clays with holes in again? ;)