What Navigational Tools Do You Use?

[sam_acw]

As the title says, I was wondering what navigational tools people use.
I have a basic Silva baseplate compass, as well as a silly little button one and an old fashioned brass one that looks like a pocket watch. I'm interested in getting some type of sighting compass but the reviews I've read of those in the £20-35 range are all very contradictory.
Do you use GPS (electronic devilry) or pace beads or any other things?

[BJ]

Map and compass, I do carry a Garmin GPS but this is really an extra and I would never rely on just a GPS. I have been in a very wooded area off track and used the GPS for a location fix to confirm my whereabouts when there were no visible landmarks.
Regards
BJ

[Silverback]

When out on the hills for pleasure, Map, Compass and pacing. I use a knitting stitch counter for recording paces which is attached to my compass lanyard. I use a standard Silva Expedition 4 baseplate compass and have use that type for 35 years navigating. I can use a sighting compass but choose not to. I have a Garmin Etrex GPS which hardly sees the light of day - I use it as a nav aid not to be relied upon.

I do however have to admit to having and using quite a lot a Satmap active 10 with national mapping on 1:25 and 1:50...saves having the whole of the UK on paper maps or using bad copies on scene...however, it is on issue to me and is only used when I'm out on a job.... but thats business, and thats a different story.

[Humakt]

I use a Silva Ranger S compass - one of these:

http://cdn.gooutdoors.co.uk/Products/21135-240412105145891847858.jpg

A map protractor with a romer scale, and some pacing beads to measure distance.

Oh, and a map...


NEVER rely on a GPS unless you have the above tools with you (and know how to use them)!! The batteries could fail, you could drop it and break it, or the circuitry could just give up, etc. And, in any case, it's quite empowering knowing that, with map and compass, you can go anywhere and look after yourself.

[Silverback]

Actually to be really cheeky ....on a job I get assigned a navigator to do it for me so I can concentrate on doing the job Im not paid to do ;)

[FishyFolk]

I carry a map and compass of my local area, but have never needed them as I always know where I am. Sandwiched between my mountain and the sea as I am, and always with a view to one of them. The only reason I do carry a map and compass is if I ever fall an break a leg or something, I can give an accurate grid of my location to SAR.

In unknown territory always a map and compass. But I tend to plan the route before I go out and stick to paths. And by looking at the hills and mountains I always have a rough idea where I am. I am never concerned with millimetr precision navigation. And even in unknown areas the map and compass stays in the backpack 99% of the time.

[AL...]

Where I go I know it like the back of my hand from the Pools of Dee right back into Aberdeen roughley 60 miles by road but a shead load of counrty but always have a map and compass in me bag also use the landscape as Im going.
have trecked the Deeside all my life and never tire of it.

Cheers
AL

[Martin]

I use a map and compass. Have a Garmin Etrex in my rucksack, in case my skills let me down. None of these things are any good unless you know how to use them. I have walked with teams who were several kilometres away from where they thought they were and seen people who had the wrong settings in their GPS which put them at the wrong grid reference! Knowledge of the area you are walking in is great but, in unfamiliar territory, knowing how to read a map is the best knowledge you can have, in my opinion. Being able to navigate in an unfamiliar place with a map and no compass is great fun.

Martin

[David_JAFO]

hello,
I was taught to navigate via Map & Compass tell tale signs of the terrain also by the stars which
was used during Gulf War I, Garmin GPS still got my original issue G.W I 'Opo Gransby'
serviced by Garmin no issues with that, used since theatres of operation both Mil/Civie.
NATO Brass Button Compass E&E (as issued), Silva Ranger compass, RA Protractor & still use
my RA 69 NATO Prismatic Compass (my mates son has that just now for the Scouts).
I have used a Sextant too.
Regards
David

[Humakt]

What measurement method do people use - degrees or mils?

I suspect those with military training, or had to navigate over proper large areas, probably use mils.

For my needs I use degrees, but occasionally thought about going over to mils.

[OakAshandThorn]

Compass and map - I have a basic Silva - nothing fancy, but it gets the job done. I mainly use both to go orienteering in the park (900 acres :D) across the street - http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/rdewitt/wcoc/Tarrywile%20Permanent%20Course%20041022b.pdf



NEVER rely on a GPS unless you have the above tools with you (and know how to use them)!! The batteries could fail, you could drop it and break it, or the circuitry could just give up, etc. And, in any case, it's quite empowering knowing that, with map and compass, you can go anywhere and look after yourself.
T^ ;)

[OakAshandThorn]

What measurement method do people use - degrees or mils?

I suspect those with military training, or had to navigate over proper large areas, probably use mils.

For my needs I use degrees, but occasionally thought about going over to mils.

I prefer degrees ;).

[FishyFolk]

What measurement method do people use - degrees or mils?

I suspect those with military training, or had to navigate over proper large areas, probably use mils.

For my needs I use degrees, but occasionally thought about going over to mils.

I was trained to use either one. And only use degrees in my civillian life. I hardly ever have the compass out anyway, as the land here is so full of features that I orient the map from them 9 out of ten times.

[Silverback]

I was trained to use either one. And only use degrees in my civillian life. I hardly ever have the compass out anyway, as the land here is so full of features that I orient the map from them 9 out of ten times.

Likewise.....

[Martin]

I can't imagine a scenario where, whilst walking, you would need any finer gradation than one degree. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that compasses marked in mils are only marked every five mils, or so, anyway?

Martin

[sam_acw]

I don't know about the mills issue - isn't the idea that they correspond to real distance better than degrees - i.e. 1 mil is equivalent to a yard at a mile (almost certainly wrong but it's something along those lines)?

I'm particularly interested in compass work as there's lots of forest here so you can't see many features. It's so easy to get turned around when you stop to look at something - though of course with the snow at the moment you can backtrack out fairly easily.

[Tigger004]

Sorry guys but I used to always use a fairly basic Sylva, I still take it and a good map (not forgetting a magnifying glass these days), But mainly use a Garmin Oregon 550t with the full country in OS landranger scale, and the world in good Terrain topo maps.
I have an etrex which I no longer use, the os mapping is excellent on the oregon, good in the car too.
pricey, but recently in the mountains of Italy where nothing was familiar it performed exceptionally well and keeps allsorts of useful and interesting data. Having said all that I never rely on it soley

[Silverback]

I can't imagine a scenario where, whilst walking, you would need any finer gradation than one degree. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that compasses marked in mils are only marked every five mils, or so, anyway?

Martin

The mils system isnt for walking its for gun laying and other military things. Those of us who can use both generally have some kind of ground based military background and thats why we learned. If I remember rightly there are 18. Something mils to one degree making a 5 mil per graduation compass still way more accurate than degrees anyway.

Sam yes youre right its about accuracy at a distance, as someone who has to navigate in forests a lot the best method I have found is pacing and compass bearings, even my fancy Satmap wont work under dense canopy. The particular problem I have is making sure I have covered the area I have been tasked to search and giving a percentage coverage. Accurate navigation is of the utmost importance as lives may potentially be at risk.

[ian c]

I was trained to use mills and still have my old issue compass and protractor, i do have a Garmin wrist GPS that is in my pack if i pack it as i will say i only used it when on ops.

[AdrianRose]

I have been studying natural navigation for quite a while now and although I am by no means an expert, I can with a high degree of accuracy orient myself in a "generalised" correct direction.

This is done by using the sun,stars, my watch, moss/lichen growth, tree shape etc etc.

However for any degree of accuracy I use a Silva sighting compass. This is my current user:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/11/hajujeze.jpg

Ade.

[jus_young]

Damn, Ade beat me to the watch one. Mine is a cheapy Casio watch, digital not analogue, and has no built in compass.

[treefrog]

I hardly ever have the compass out anyway, as the land here is so full of features that I orient the map from them 9 out of ten times.

Pretty much the opposite of my back yard; take a few square miles of rocks and trees and water and multiply it by a thousand...all looks the same.
For instance I approached a beaver pond I've been to a hundred times, only from a different direction than usual, and for the first five minutes I thought I'd found a
new pond! Up till recently I always had faith in my compass, but maybe I need to take some lessons from Adrian and learn to read the bush better...
and I can't seem to find a decent topo map of this area in a small enough scale to be useful. We've been using printed-out sections from Google Earth
for hunting season instead. Most of the water bodies are unnamed around here also so we make up our own, except we can't seem to keep it straight
which one is which..:confused:

[Silverback]

Damn, Ade beat me to the watch one. Mine is a cheapy Casio watch, digital not analogue, and has no built in compass.

I had one of those posh Casio pro trek watches too expensive to change batteries and packed in after 3 years and beyond economical repair....so I pulled out the old G10 new battery and strap bingo been ticking reliably since 1990 and because it has hands I can do the nav thing with it

[Ehecatl]

I use degrees. I also learned (long, long ago) that when using an aero compass (a DI gyroscope set to the compass pre flight) one should typically expect to only navigate to about 2 degrees accuracy when on a bearing. I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true of the average hand held compass, held in the average hand.

M@

[FishyFolk]

I use degrees. I also learned (long, long ago) that when using an aero compass (a DI gyroscope set to the compass pre flight) one should typically expect to only navigate to about 2 degrees accuracy when on a bearing. I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true of the average hand held compass, held in the average hand.

M@

One would be pretty dense if you take your bearing once, and then follow that bearing for miles without re-doing the procedure at intervals or by natural places to do so (at recognisable natural or man made features in the terrain that is marked on your map, or after a certain distance has been navigated f.ex), and then expect to land right on target...

[Silverback]

One would be pretty dense if you take your bearing once, and then follow that bearing for miles without re-doing the procedure at intervals or by natural places to do so (at recognisable natural or man made features in the terrain that is marked on your map, or after a certain distance has been navigated f.ex), and then expect to land right on target...

Agreed. I do most of my navigation in bad weather and generally in the dark and frequently checking and re jigging is a must

[happybonzo]

I'd like a Francis Barker - if I could afford it :(

[Martin]

Degrees or mils makes no difference. One isn't more 'accurate' than the other. It's like saying that Fahrenheit is a more accurate temperature scale than Celsius. Mils is a military scale that is based on the metric system. One mils is equal to 1 metre at 1 kilometer. Apparently, there are 18mils per degree but there are 60 minutes to the degree and there are 60 seconds to each minute so, the degrees/minutes/seconds scale is a finer scale than mils and serves navies around the world very well when they are navigating massive distances.

I have always used degrees, ever since I started navigation 30 years ago, and can find my way to small features on the open moor in darkness. If I used the mils scale, I could find the same feature as it matters not what 'bearing' I'm walking on but where the compass needle is pointing in relation to my current location and my desired destination. As long as the red is in shed, all is good. :)

Martin

[Silverback]

To give it its proper name, the radian, is used mainly by militaries in artillery, tank, and mortar gunnery. There are 2 PI radians in a circle. PI is a constant of approximately 3.1416. That is 2 * 3.1416, or 6.283 radians. Divide each radian into 1000 mil-radians and you see there are 6283 mil-radians in a circle. Mil-radians are called mils for short. 17.78 mils equal 1 degree.

Compass use of mils typically rounds 6283 to 6400 for simplification. Some foreign militaries have simplified the other direction and divided the compass face into 6000 units, exactly like the face of a watch, with 100 units the same angle as a minute on the watch face.

Using mils, the actual size of an object observed in the field can be estimated. An object that appears to be n mils wide when it is 1000 units away from you, is actually n units wide - the units used does not matter, feet, yards, metres, miles A vehicle that appears to be 15 mils long and is 1000 feet distant is actually 15 feet long. Or, two vehicles that appear to be 100 mils apart and are 1000 meters away, are actually 100 meters apart. Conversely, if you know the size of an object, you can estimate its distance from you. If the tops of two mountains are 1 mile apart on your map, but they appear to be 100 mils apart, you must be 10 miles away. Sighting on a man (approximately 6 feet tall) who appears to be 12 mils tall must be about 500 feet away. If he seemed 3 mils tall, he'd be 2000 feet away.

So another use but peculiar to ground based military applications. The need for mils to be accurate over thousands of miles is pointless as you are limited by the effective range of your artillery piece. Lets face it too 100 metres at 10k still puts the enemy at the impact point - fire for effect, rounds out, rounds out ;)

[FishyFolk]

And then there is the one other thing that limits how accurate you need to be. Unless you are in the air or on water, most places in Norway and the UK too if I am not mistaken will have stuff like hills, cliffs, bogs, lakes, rivers, etc between you and where you want to go. So all you need to start out is in what general that wayish direction your end goal is, and then it's to take out the map and work out a route that will take you in that general direction, without you walking off a cliff or getting stuck in a bog. This means that most of the time you won't be walking in the direction of your target at all.

[Silverback]

Ha ha rune you must have visited the large peat bog that is called the dark peak. A featureless plain of soul sucking peat groughs that catches out the unaware and the over confident a read of the rescue call outs in the area are testament to that

[Martin]

That's exactly as I see it, Rune. For 99% of any given route, I will be using the topographic data on the map to determine my position. It's only for the last few hundred meters or so that I would be walking on a bearing and then I would probably be pacing to find a 'micro navigation' spot on the map, such as a cairn or a cist. In the mountains, this may be a bothy or a building. In emergency, it may be a smaller feature such as a telephone box?

As with all navigational techniques, it's about having a broad range of skills and techniques at your disposal and knowing when to use them that counts. That's why you can walk all day without the use of either map, or compass, as you know that, if you keep the water on one side and the mountains on the other, you will always know what direction you are going in.

Martin

[FishyFolk]

Ha ha rune you must have visited the large peat bog that is called the dark peak. A featureless plain of soul sucking peat groughs that catches out the unaware and the over confident a read of the rescue call outs in the area are testament to that

I've been in the UK once in my life. Had a 12 hour layover on Heathrow on my way to the Sudan. So took the tube to Paddington station, and did a pub to pub from there to Buckingham palace, and then down to the Thames somewhere around Big Ben, and by then it was time to head back to the air port to fly on to Sudan via Cairo...no compass was in use, I navigated by sight from water hole to water hole. The worst part was to navigate the wilderness of Hyde park. Not a pint to be seen! I was mortally in fear of succumbing to dehydration!

[Silverback]

The worst part was to navigate the wilderness of Hyde park. Not a pint to be seen! I was mortally in fear of succumbing to dehydration!

Oh my you poor fellow...I forgot it must also be remembered that the most dangerous thing to NCO's and other ranks is.........an officer with a map ;)

[FishyFolk]

Oh my you poor fellow...I forgot it must also be remembered that the most dangerous thing to NCO's and other ranks is.........an officer with a map ;)

And that combat (or anything else bad that may happen) will happen in the space between two adjoining maps...

[Humakt]

To give it its proper name, the radian, is used mainly by militaries in artillery, tank, and mortar gunnery. There are 2 PI radians in a circle. PI is a constant of approximately 3.1416. That is 2 * 3.1416, or 6.283 radians. Divide each radian into 1000 mil-radians and you see there are 6283 mil-radians in a circle. Mil-radians are called mils for short. 17.78 mils equal 1 degree.

Compass use of mils typically rounds 6283 to 6400 for simplification. Some foreign militaries have simplified the other direction and divided the compass face into 6000 units, exactly like the face of a watch, with 100 units the same angle as a minute on the watch face.

Using mils, the actual size of an object observed in the field can be estimated. An object that appears to be n mils wide when it is 1000 units away from you, is actually n units wide - the units used does not matter, feet, yards, metres, miles A vehicle that appears to be 15 mils long and is 1000 feet distant is actually 15 feet long. Or, two vehicles that appear to be 100 mils apart and are 1000 meters away, are actually 100 meters apart. Conversely, if you know the size of an object, you can estimate its distance from you. If the tops of two mountains are 1 mile apart on your map, but they appear to be 100 mils apart, you must be 10 miles away. Sighting on a man (approximately 6 feet tall) who appears to be 12 mils tall must be about 500 feet away. If he seemed 3 mils tall, he'd be 2000 feet away.

So another use but peculiar to ground based military applications. The need for mils to be accurate over thousands of miles is pointless as you are limited by the effective range of your artillery piece. Lets face it too 100 metres at 10k still puts the enemy at the impact point - fire for effect, rounds out, rounds out ;)


Yup, all that!
That's exactly why I am thinking of going over to mills. Not so I can identify size and range of enemy tanks, obviously, but because mills not only give you direction but you can also work out size and distance as well.

For everyday orienteering then degrees are perfectly adequate. But, as Sapper amply illustrates, the mills system lets you do so much more.

He's talked me into. Now all I have to do is talk myself into buying another compass...

[Humakt]

As with all navigational techniques, it's about having a broad range of skills and techniques at your disposal and knowing when to use them that counts. That's why you can walk all day without the use of either map, or compass, as you know that, if you keep the water on one side and the mountains on the other, you will always know what direction you are going in.

Martin

Yes, that exactly.
Ultimately it's what's in your skull that is more important than what's in your pocket.

[Silverback]

Yup, all that!
That's exactly why I am thinking of going over to mills. Not so I can identify size and range of enemy tanks, obviously, but because mills not only give you direction but you can also work out size and distance as well.


So a stag that appears to be 12 mils tall is approximately 500m away see how useful it is ? I use degrees normally mainly because everyone else I work with uses degrees - my preference is mils, I have both on my issue exped type 4

[Martin]

Oh my you poor fellow...I forgot it must also be remembered that the most dangerous thing to NCO's and other ranks is.........an officer with a map ;)

I resemble that remark!!! :D

Martin

[Silverback]

I resemble that remark!!! :D

Martin

Ahh but Martin you came up from the ranks..thats different

[Martin]

Well, I'm off out this weekend to try to impart some of my navigational knowledge onto my daughter who has now developed a desire to venture into the wilds of Dartmoor. We will be using map and compass and trying to navigate using the features of the land to find features on the map.

Martin

[jbrown14]

I carry a map and compass of my local area, but have never needed them as I always know where I am. Sandwiched between my mountain and the sea as I am, and always with a view to one of them. The only reason I do carry a map and compass is if I ever fall an break a leg or something, I can give an accurate grid of my location to SAR.

In unknown territory always a map and compass. But I tend to plan the route before I go out and stick to paths. And by looking at the hills and mountains I always have a rough idea where I am. I am never concerned with millimetr precision navigation. And even in unknown areas the map and compass stays in the backpack 99% of the time.

I can pretty much "ditto" everything Rune said, except I don't live between the mountain and the sea... :D

I carry a simple Silva baseplate compass that I've had for about 15 or more years now, and about 10 years ago I picked up a similar Brunton baseplate compass to keep in the pack as a backup.

I've really only had to rely on map and compass navigation 3 specific times I can remember, but have used them as a guide when trails get indistinct and markers are sparse. I've triangulated a number of times to orient myself on the map and see if I'm near the summit or when I want to pick out the distant peaks in the Adirondacks, that's very fun to do, but you have to know the terrain somewhat.

I spent most of one day on a weekend hike doing "handrail" navigation with a friend of mine; following a spine of the land on a compass heading when the marked trail we were hiking just completely stopped.

All the best,

Josh

[bushcraftybob]

i guess sat nav isn't the kind of answer you were looking for ?

[sam_acw]

If that's you answer that's fine, I go out for enjoyment and satnav isn't something that interests me. I don't have any particular objection to it when it's used sensibly.

[biker-bri]

Map and silvia compass plus a homing pigeon,s sense of direction T^ hence my signature

[Jefferson]

I use a Suunto ambit watch with this I can use it like a GPS and can also use it to record my performance. I use it almost everyday and I love it, however I always take a map and compass with me too as I don't believe it is wise to solely rely on electronic GPS
Cheers Dave

[Adam Savage]

Map and magnet, until I've been to the place before, then tend to rely on my sense of direction :D. I do take the map with me in my pack, just in case though.
have a Magellan, but never found a reason to use it yet.

[Olly]

I have always used map and compass, I am a geologist by training so have a Silva 15CL sighting compass with a clinometer. I don't really need the clino anymore but the geologeek in me would not let me buy anything else! I rarely use the sighting mirror, last time I had to use the compass seriously was in the lakes, about 8 hours walking on the tops with about 50m visibility. It was nice to know that I could still remember how to use it. Walking around the pastoral landscape of Warwickshire can get a little unchallenging at times so it was nice to have a bas ass day out on some proper hills!