Bushraft Vs Primitive skills

[luresalive]

We had a great discussion around the fire at a recent outing, funny thing was that although most of us tend to be of a very similar mind this subject seemed to split the few of us into 2 groups. The discussion was simply that Bowdrill ( or more correctly the Firebow) is not a bushcraft skill but a primitive skill.

When lighting a fire the Bushcrafter should know when it's necessary to light a fire, the type of fire that needs to be lit and the proper way to maintain that fire... how it's lit is completely incidental!

If you're on a survival exercise the priority is to get the fire lit, not mess around rubbing sticks if you've got a lighter in your pocket. There's absolutely nothing wrong with lighting a fire by flint and steel, firebow or handrill but all you are doing is using a primitive skill to achieve your goal which is much more easily achieved by Mr Bic.

Practice practice practice to achieve proficiency in these techniques, they are nice to know and be able to do, but they are not stictly bushcraft skills, they are primitive skills.



We all ended up having to agree to disagree as we really couldn't come to a unanimous conclusion, pensive discussion indeed.

[Proventurer]

Interesting to say the least!
If Bic lighters had been available back in the days of the cave dwellers, I'm pretty certain, all of them would of forgone the arduous task of friction fire lighting with bow and stick and opted for the "flick".
That having been said, surely puts the use of the bowdrill etc, in the realm of a primitive skill!

[luresalive]

Interesting to say the least!
If Bic lighters had been available back in the days of the cave dwellers, I'm pretty certain, all of them would of forgone the arduous task of friction fire lighting with bow and stick and opted for the "flick".
That having been said, surely puts the use of the bowdrill etc, in the realm of a primitive skill!

Exactly my point, bushcraft is about the fire construction and mantainence of it, not the method of how it's started.

[jus_young]

But using this arguement, how many of the skills we refer to as bushcraft would come under the primitive skills title? It does get the brain cells wondering a little but would agree that primitive wins on this occasion.

[Realearner]

Surely bushcraft is primitive skills being re-hashed for the modern man.
Yes it is easy to light fires it is also easy to have your tarp and hammock.
You don't go out and find a cave or build a debris shelter every time, or do you.
But I thought bushcraft was about honing skills of old, with modern back up.
I for one want to learn how to make, and do old skills. But I still use paracord,
I don't make cordage every time I need some.
So as to a split? The best question would be what do you want out of your camping trips?

[Martin]

To my 13 year old daughter, primitive skills equals using a phone box vs her mobile phone, or writing a letter vs sending a text. Whilst this sounds ridiculous, primitive skills can be as primitive as cooking on a stick over an open fire or butchering an animal using flint tools as opposed to a nice steel blade. Just how far you go back depends on how 'primitive' you want to be.

I guess this is the essence of the debate, 'What is bushcraft?' or 'What does the term 'Bushcraft' meant to you?'. I've seen these questions debated numerous times and always throw up some interesting, if heated, answers. ;)

Martin

[Edwin]

Strange that a division should be possible on what I though was a developing consensus that Living History and primitive skills along with historical reenactment were moving closer together with bushcraft and small "s" survivalism.

Just like today the people of the past took from their existing box of tricks what they needed for the task in hand. For me it is very definitely the lure of the Mesolithic as it were but I will use a bivvy bag because I can't afford reindeer skins and, in any case, the way they are processed means that the skin is porous and useless. I compromise with a firesteel but have got fire with a bow drill.

Labels are really for outsiders and journalists,what is important is that people with different angles on the outdoors do not close off from others.

[Adam Savage]

To me, bushcraft is using traditional and primitive skills, to live in harmony with nature. Survivalism on the other hand, is what you refer to in the "get the fire lit" statement. So basically What I'm getting at, is bowdrill is bushcraft, bic is survivalist. :)

[Edwin]

Just read a perfect example of mutual involvement by differently interested people in "The Carpow Logboat, a bronze age vessel brought to life" by David Strachan. The project was to recreate a logboat found in the River Tay using a mix of modern and bronze tools.Amongst the acknowledgements to those helping the project is this ".. volunteer team made up of local residents, archaeology students and members of the "bush-craft fraternity.....their enthusiasm was the key to success..."

[luresalive]

To me, bushcraft is using traditional and primitive skills, to live in harmony with nature. Survivalism on the other hand, is what you refer to in the "get the fire lit" statement. So basically What I'm getting at, is bowdrill is bushcraft, bic is survivalist. :)

Funny how different people see things differently, to be bowdrill is primitive, a ferro rod is bushcraft.

[Adam Savage]

Funny how different people see things differently, to be bowdrill is primitive, a ferro rod is bushcraft.

I see your point. I guess 90% of the time, that is completely correct, but simply knowing how to use primitive skills is part of both bushcraft and survivalism, for times when you haven't got a ferro rod, or other modern equipment, handy. Would you say that is a fair enough statement?

[Realearner]

I love this thread, i still think the comment of knowledge weighs nothing. But it is always there, lighters, ferro rods etc still have to have knowledge to get the correct tinders, kindling etc.
And if all else fails, the knowledge to make a bow drill and start a fire could come in useful. Along with all other skills of bushcraft.

Love and knowledge to all.

[luresalive]

I see your point. I guess 90% of the time, that is completely correct, but simply knowing how to use primitive skills is part of both bushcraft and survivalism, for times when you haven't got a ferro rod, or other modern equipment, handy. Would you say that is a fair enough statement?

Yes I Totally agree with you, but I always wondered why so many people put so much emphasis on such a small part of bushcraft, it seems to be the one thing everybody wants to achieve. when I got my first ember with the firebow I never felt any exultation or pride, it was the end of a long hard struggle for me, I just didn't derive any pleasure from it..now Flint and steel in a completely different kettle of fish, every time I see those sparks dance my eyes glow and when the amadou catches it just mesmerises me, I love it...The thing is going out and getting an ember is not easy, keep the boards and spindle dry in your house and you'll get it every time, but in the field it's not the same. I've seen people say they have done it but they used stuff they brought with them, or they used paracord, that defeats the whole purpose and you're simply fooling yourself if you think you've achieved it..go out, cut the wood, dry it if you have to, make the string from natural materials you have gathered on the day then put it altogether and see if you can do it, I'll guarantee you 99% of us won't be able to, if you need to carry string to make a bow drill you might as well carry a ferro rod..There's a video of Survivorman somewhere on you tube which shows him struggling for 12 solid hours to get an ember, he used his shoe laces then strips of cloth, he eventually did it, but if he had had to make his own string from natural materials he gathered on the day I don't think he'd have succeeded...Primitive knowledge and skills are great fun but they're not the be all and end all of the wonderous world of Bushcraft.

[Adam Savage]

Yes I Totally agree with you, but I always wondered why so many people put so much emphasis on such a small part of bushcraft, it seems to be the one thing everybody wants to achieve. when I got my first ember with the firebow I never felt any exultation or pride, it was the end of a long hard struggle for me, I just didn't derive any pleasure from it..now Flint and steel in a completely different kettle of fish, every time I see those sparks dance my eyes glow and when the amadou catches it just mesmerises me, I love it...The thing is going out and getting an ember is not easy, keep the boards and spindle dry in your house and you'll get it every time, but in the field it's not the same. I've seen people say they have done it but they used stuff they brought with them, or they used paracord, that defeats the whole purpose and you're simply fooling yourself if you think you've achieved it..go out, cut the wood, dry it if you have to, make the string from natural materials you have gathered on the day then put it altogether and see if you can do it, I'll guarantee you 99% of us won't be able to, if you need to carry string to make a bow drill you might as well carry a ferro rod..There's a video of Survivorman somewhere on you tube which shows him struggling for 12 solid hours to get an ember, he used his shoe laces then strips of cloth, he eventually did it, but if he had had to make his own string from natural materials he gathered on the day I don't think he'd have succeeded...Primitive knowledge and skills are great fun but they're not the be all and end all of the wonderous world of Bushcraft.

At one of the Dartmoor meets, Andy Bruce, made a group bowdrill, with gathered materials, true he used paracord for the string, but it still worked. He did have the components sat near the group fire, drying totally, for a day or so, but it worked eventually. I see what you're saying though, he had a fire to start with, to dry the timbers, and he used man made cord.

It's interesting you mention no sense of exultation from it. If you don't feel like you have actually achieved something special, then the exercise has nothing to reward you with and, as such, I would say this goes against much of what bushcraft is about. Bushcraft should be about enjoying the things you do, while you live alongside nature, in the most environmentally/nature friendly ways.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say (just not very well :)) is, I totally agree with you, that (for you and many others) the fire bow isn't a bushcraft skill. However, for the people that do enjoy it, I think it is. Purely for the fact it is an activity that makes them feel good, that they can share with like minded people, while holding onto primitive skills that our ancestors may have used and not letting the skill fade into the past.

I hope that makes sense to someone out there, my brain hurts...:p

[Edwin]

The fire is basic, Prometheus got it for us and it is the key to all so how to make it has to be special. After all you can strip us right back to the naked animal and mostly we would live even if we gnawed carrion and burrowed in leaves to sleep. It is fire that makes the difference, drives back the dark, warms us so we can think of more than bare survival and adds real pleasure to the mechanics of eating.

[Adam Savage]

The fire is basic, Prometheus got it for us and it is the key to all so how to make it has to be special. After all you can strip us right back to the naked animal and mostly we would live even if we gnawed carrion and burrowed in leaves to sleep. It is fire that makes the difference, drives back the dark, warms us so we can think of more than bare survival and adds real pleasure to the mechanics of eating.

I don't think fire itself was ever an issue here. Merely how it is created. :)

[luresalive]

:wink:
At one of the Dartmoor meets, Andy Bruce, made a group bowdrill, with gathered materials, true he used paracord for the string, but it still worked. He did have the components sat near the group fire, drying totally, for a day or so, but it worked eventually. I see what you're saying though, he had a fire to start with, to dry the timbers, and he used man made cord.

It's interesting you mention no sense of exultation from it. If you don't feel like you have actually achieved something special, then the exercise has nothing to reward you with and, as such, I would say this goes against much of what bushcraft is about. Bushcraft should be about enjoying the things you do, while you live alongside nature, in the most environmentally/nature friendly ways.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say (just not very well :)) is, I totally agree with you, that (for you and many others) the fire bow isn't a bushcraft skill. However, for the people that do enjoy it, I think it is. Purely for the fact it is an activity that makes them feel good, that they can share with like minded people, while holding onto primitive skills that our ancestors may have used and not letting the skill fade into the past.

I hope that makes sense to someone out there, my brain hurts...:p

Again I concur and it takes me back to my first post where I mentioned even amongst my friends we couldn't agree, I just love the discussion of such things, the insight into the way peoples perception of certain bushcraft ideals comes across fuels my thoughts and I love the discussions they create, sometimes so much can be gained from such learned minds..

I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire ( even though he didn't really say it!!):wink:

[Edwin]

To move the discussion away from fire then. How much effort do we put into "primitive" skills like navigation by natural means tracking and weather forecasting?
In my wood, small though it is, I tended to get a bit disorientated but although I don't know every tree I do know where I am in relation to the campsite at any time. This is the sort of intimacy with their whole range that hunter-gatherers possess.

Wayfinding is part of bushcrafting but it is a primitive skill all the same.

To catch up on our ancestors the book "Nature is your guide" by Harold Gatty is a good start and so is "The Natural Navigator "by Tristan Gooley both reasonably priced on Amazon. However nothing actually beats looking where you are going when you are out and about.

[luresalive]

To move the discussion away from fire then. How much effort do we put into "primitive" skills like navigation by natural means tracking and weather forecasting?
In my wood, small though it is, I tended to get a bit disorientated but although I don't know every tree I do know where I am in relation to the campsite at any time. This is the sort of intimacy with their whole range that hunter-gatherers possess.

Wayfinding is part of bushcrafting but it is a primitive skill all the same.

To catch up on our ancestors the book "Nature is your guide" by Harold Gatty is a good start and so is "The Natural Navigator "by Tristan Gooley both reasonably priced on Amazon. However nothing actually beats looking where you are going when you are out and about.

Good question, but is what you experience a primitive skill or a Natural Instinct or a simple sense of direction?
Homing pigeons don't use bushcraft skills to navigate their way home!!

[Edwin]

Good question, but is what you experience a primitive skill or a Natural Instinct or a simple sense of direction?
Homing pigeons don't use bushcraft skills to navigate their way home!!

A skill, an instinct or a sense can all be part of the same thing. Pigeons use magnetic forces, way more sophisticated than seeing what side the moss grows on trees.

[Adam Savage]

:wink:

Again I concur and it takes me back to my first post where I mentioned even amongst my friends we couldn't agree, I just love the discussion of such things, the insight into the way peoples perception of certain bushcraft ideals comes across fuels my thoughts and I love the discussions they create, sometimes so much can be gained from such learned minds..

I'll drink to that mate :)


A skill, an instinct or a sense can all be part of the same thing. Pigeons use magnetic forces, way more sophisticated than seeing what side the moss grows on trees.

Now that's hitting on a complex subject. People know things and people learn things. It's the way of life ;)

[paul standley]

Hmmm... I think the line's are pretty blurred on this topic....

Using paracord for a fire bow instead of natural cordage...
Using a modern tool steel bush knife made in a factory vs. a flint or hand forged knife...(first make your forge...!)
Using a tent/hammock vs. building a shelter...
Eating processed food when you are out vs. catching/foraging your own
Using your car to get you to a camp etc...

Bushcraft to me is both an amalgam of several disciplines and a 'mindset'

Primative Skills and Bushcraft and survival and woodcraft and... etc are just labels...

3,000 yrs ago they were sat around a fire having this same debate, flint vs. bronze vs. new fangled iron :-)

[Adam Savage]

3,000 yrs ago they were sat around a fire having this same debate, flint vs. bronze vs. new fangled iron :-)

Oooow oooow, don't forget bone... :p

[luresalive]

Oooow oooow, don't forget bone... :p

Absolutely !! while a lot of people prefer to knap flint, my medium of choice is bone !!


http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/luresalive/100_0769.jpg

[Edwin]

Even way way back they decorated tools and made them better than was required just for their function. We do this now, cleaning the paint off a hatchet and prettying up the handle, for example.

Cliche perhaps but people is and was just people.

[Adam Savage]

Absolutely !! while a lot of people prefer to knap flint, my medium of choice is bone !!


http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/luresalive/100_0769.jpg

Nice collection there. Did you make all of them?

[luresalive]

yeah, they're all made by me...

[bushcraftboy]

yeah, they're all made by me...

Fair play mate, I've only flint knapped a few times, and I have to say them flint tools and bone tools are really brilliant, well done!

[Adam Savage]

yeah, they're all made by me...

Excellent work mate. Well done. T^T^T^:rock-on:

[dsavidge]

Nice collection there. Did you make all of them?

X2

[Tree beard]

X3 . . . . Top stuff.

[Raven]

I like this thread, its a great question and can divide opinion, for me it depends on where you draw the line, where does the primitive skill blur into modern skill, where does the primitive tool become the modern tool, its an evolution in most cases i think, so the question is where do YOU draw your line? The stone age? bronze? iron? personally i think primitive skills are performed with primitive tools and that's what makes them primitive, bushcraft covers all skills both modern and primitive to make your time in the wilds an enjoyable one and to leave as little impact on the enviroment as possible. great question tho!

[jus_young]

I like this thread, its a great question and can divide opinion, for me it depends on where you draw the line, where does the primitive skill blur into modern skill, where does the primitive tool become the modern tool, its an evolution in most cases i think, so the question is where do YOU draw your line? The stone age? bronze? iron? personally i think primitive skills are performed with primitive tools and that's what makes them primitive, bushcraft covers all skills both modern and primitive to make your time in the wilds an enjoyable one and to leave as little impact on the enviroment as possible. great question tho!

I like this way of looking at it. The old and the new much like the good folk that lived as Stone age people using primitive ways as opposed to my bushcraft anticks with modern gear. Begs the question though, in a thousand years time (if man still inhabits the Earth) will our current ways be seen as primitive?

[Roadkillphil]

Most (not all) of the elements of this thread suggest duality. Ie Bushcraft is this/bushcraft is not that. The truth is that bushcraft (and indeed life in general) just is. No satisfaction can be gained from attaching labels and fustrating oneself with what it is or is not. The nature of humanity is that to each and every one of us bushcraft means something entirely different. This too will change and evolve with every skill learnt, every goal achieved, every nugget of knowledge passed on to others and also with every second of every day.
These days I do not claim to be "into" bushcraft or "into" extreme sports or "into" primitive skills, as what it is that I enjoy encompasses many different disciplines which all interweave with each other. From firelighting to surfing, axe chucking to coasteering, spooncarving to martial arts, they all flow with and compliment each other. They all form one wonderful multifaceted jewel that for me is complete and needs no division into categories.

Hope this wasn't to philomasophical!! ;)

[Adam Savage]

All hail the wise and mighty Phil, for it is told, a spoon bearing, ninja, will come forth with, atop a coracle, when the tide is at it's highest. Look to the east, for the messiah will emerge triumphant. ;)

Well put Socrates...I mean, Phil.

[luresalive]

I have to completely agree that bushcraft is different things to different people, some like the hitech approach others like minimal kit, some just like learning, others like to teach, and it's as it should be a great big mix-up of allsorts. However I personally do like to classify things and believe it or not so does man, we use time to order our lives and classifications to work out the families of plants and animals, so to say that things don't need to be pigeon holed is to invite chaos..
Remember .."From Chaos comes order, from order comes classification, from classification comes education, from education comes intelligence".. and that is why we are were we are today!

[Edwin]

Good thought Phil. Made me think that instead perhaps of my idea of all these different things coming together perhaps it is the person widening out as you suggested. We am just is.

[Roadkillphil]

Adam: :D

Luresalive: order is an illusion constructed by mankind ;)

Edwin: yeah, kind of, I think. I'm afraid I find it hard to put into words the way I perceive the universe, I should've tried harder in English at school! :D I'm looking at my original comment and seeing how it could be interpreted in many different ways depending on the person reading it...

[luresalive]

Phil..Time is an illusion, granted,but order is not. Without order the universe would not exist, the laws of Physics are discovered not invented and Pi being the perfect number again was discovered and not invented, as the universe and all it contains existed as it is before man ever did....anyway, this is becoming a discussion for around the campfire and a stary night when we are all feeling small when we look up above us..great input everyone, thankyou.