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Bob W
14-06-2011, 05:59 PM
Can anyone shed a bit more light on where exactly we can go and what we can do?

Is it OK for me to camp in these so called countryside rights of way, make camp, light a fire, carefully I hasten to add and generally roam about the yellow areas on Natural England's CRoW maps.

Martin
14-06-2011, 06:50 PM
No it's not. The only place in England that you can legally camp is on private land, with the owner's permission, or on certain parts of the Dartmoor commons where camping is allowed under the by-laws specially written for that purpose. Other than that, you have no right to camp anywhere. Rights of way mean that you have the right to 'pass over' that land but not to stop, not even for a brew or a picnic.

Hope this helps

Martin

Bob W
14-06-2011, 07:08 PM
Thanks Martin.

I'm just trying to find somewhere local to get out for a night or two.

I've got loads of woodland within half an hours drive of me between Helmsley and Great Broughton but it looks like it may be out of bounds:sad:

Martin
14-06-2011, 07:10 PM
Hmmm, but North Yorks is a very large area Bob. ;)

Martin

(note the quick edit of National Park ;))

Bob W
14-06-2011, 07:14 PM
North Yorkshire actually, even bigger:)

Would you by any chance be suggesting that some like-minded people would ignore these rules and be a bit "stealthy":evilgrin:

Martin
14-06-2011, 07:14 PM
The thought never crossed my mind. ;)

Martin

Bob W
14-06-2011, 07:15 PM
Hmmm, but North Yorks is a very large area Bob. ;)

Martin

(note the quick edit of National Park ;))

Too quick for me!!

Bob W
14-06-2011, 07:16 PM
The thought never crossed my mind. ;)

Martin


Damn, Butlins it is then:ashamed:

Martin
14-06-2011, 07:17 PM
Damn, Butlins it is then:ashamed:

Make sure you send us a postcard. :)

Martin

Bob W
14-06-2011, 07:20 PM
I have a feeling that the souvenir shop will be a bit "unavailable".

Martin
14-06-2011, 07:21 PM
I have a feeling that the souvenir shop will be a bit "unavailable".

That will be a disappointment but I'm sure you'll make up for it.

Martin

Bob W
15-06-2011, 03:59 PM
I assume that Martin has changed the title of this thread, not that it bothers me, but I wouldn't want people to think I'm asking them to reveal their hard sought and found locations without me doing my own leg-work.

Feel free to disclose if you want though! :evilgrin:

Silverback
15-06-2011, 07:25 PM
Generally I have found that Im left alone as i set up late and leave early, and leave no trace. I was once 'caught' bt 2 NP rangers who rather than tell me off were on their way to do exactly the same and have a night out.:o

What they did object to was about 15 people who had literally taken over a little island and trashed it:mad2::mad2::mad2:

Glad to share one or two local spots of mine if you're ever in the West Riding

Bob W
15-06-2011, 09:50 PM
West Yorkshire's not too far away from me, let me know when and whereT^

Silverback
15-06-2011, 10:02 PM
sure thing Bob, planning a night out very soon, just a bit 'time' poor at the moment - never been so busy and having nowt to show at the end of it !!

Thumbcrusher
16-06-2011, 09:39 AM
Where do you live Bob? Cant be too far from me in outskirts of Middlesbrough!

i'v used my hammock in the woods at Newgate Bank forest on the B1257 just outside Helmsley with no problems. get there late and leave early and absolutaly no fires though which is a downer but guess you cant have everything!

theres also some good spot on Eston hills but best go during the week when the kids are at school to ensure some peace and quiet!!

Bob W
16-06-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm in Stockton. Funnily enough, I was bowling for Durham county at Kirkby Moorside last Saturday and was looking at the woodland to the north of Helmsley and up to Clay bank.

I've since been told that it's all forestry owned land and, as you stated, absolutely no fires. The only downer for me would be the late arrival and early leaving. I'd be looking for a two or three nighter.

I'm a keen angler and spend quite a lot of time bivvie'd on the banks. I'm just looking to get a bit more hands on with the bushcraft side of things.

Martin
16-06-2011, 06:21 PM
Err, I never changed the thread title. Must have been one of the other, far more illustrious, moderators. :)

Martin

Bob W
17-06-2011, 02:59 PM
Sorry Martin, I assumed it was you as you were responding and you're a mod'.

Doesn't matter anyhow T^

kINGPIN
02-08-2011, 08:46 AM
Just get out and explore mate. Trial and error is how you learn.

bigzee
02-08-2011, 04:11 PM
Have a look at this advice as a good guide:
http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Answers/Search-results/Camping--backpacking/Wild-Camping-am-I-allowed/

bare grills
09-01-2012, 10:53 PM
so where do we all stand in costal areas ?

i know of some lovely sandy beaches on a tidal estuary with woodland to within 20 mtrs of the sand !

can we camp on beaches ?

used to as teenagers have partys with camp fires on them and were never bothered !

Martin
10-01-2012, 05:29 PM
The bottom line is that all land in the UK is owned by someone and you need the permission of the land owner to camp on their land. However, it seems to be a widely held understanding that, providing you are respectful to the land, arrive late and leave early and keep well off the beaten track that you are unlikely to be bothered if you take a chance without permission.

I would be pretty unhappy if I found someone camping out in my garden, even if that garden was 20 acres and full of trees (which it's not). If, on the other hand, the person came to me and told me what they wanted to do I might be more sympathetic.

Martin

jimmyswizzle
20-01-2012, 09:56 PM
Camp where ever you like!!! I do:)
The worst that will happen is youre asked to move on but if your stealthy enough you wont get caught anyway.
Try looking at it this way, when the dinosaurs were about millions of years ago they didnt need permission to camp out did they????
Who actually owns the land anyway??? No one does, except on paper. People get so hung up on laws that they forget to enjoy themselves.
Sooner or later you will need a permit to fart in your own tent.....its all political b*ll*x. Hope this helps:war:

Edwin
20-01-2012, 10:08 PM
People get so hung up on laws that they forget to enjoy themselves.


What is more we seem to be hamstringing ourselves in case something might be a crime when it would not be. A nation frightened of its own shadow is not attractive. What is not forbidden by law is allowed.

Of course stealth and courtesy are good things when camping but how surprising is it that I have seen brash van loads of people camping and lighting fires in Savernake Forest or by the side of the preserved trout River Kennet, fishing as well, with nary a sanction. Not nice for many reasons but shows you the likely level of enforcement you might meet with your modest camp.

jimmyswizzle
20-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Sorry 4got to add "Leave it as you found it and have respect for nature and the land"

bare grills
21-01-2012, 03:40 PM
what is the law then regarding common land ? i have two commons near me (danbury and galleywood) .

what is common land ?

edit: just answered my own question.. here http://www.oss.org.uk/commons/
:happy-clapping:

Jefferson
28-01-2012, 01:13 PM
I've got loads of woodland within half an hours drive of me between Helmsley and Great Broughton but it looks like it may be out of bounds

Hi, I live in York and i have been having very similar problems.
What i have been doing is using Google maps and finding areas that i like the look of, then popping out for a quick look of the area.
recently i having be parking the car up in a village and then walking a few miles to where i want to be, that way the car is out of sight. make sure your as deep into the woodland as you can go and bobs your uncle... just make sure your safe with your fire and leave it how you found it!

iv been using the woods around Hovingham/Sheriff Hutton and have not had a problem.
Recently i went up to Osmotherly and camped in one of the large woods a few miles away (not the one next to Cod Beck) i was there from 12 in the after noon till about the same time the next day and had a fire going all the time and again dint have a problem.. like i say just leave the place how you found it and there will not be a problem.

surfer dude
14-02-2012, 09:40 AM
I camp on National Trust land but very slealthy and if I am caught and asked to move on I do so theres no point in having cross words as I know Im in the wrong but I state Im looking after the wild life as Ive heard bad things are happening!
There are worse crimes than wild camping but it is still a crime!

comanighttrain
14-02-2012, 12:29 PM
Can anyone shed a bit more light on where exactly we can go and what we can do?

Is it OK for me to camp in these so called countryside rights of way, make camp, light a fire, carefully I hasten to add and generally roam about the yellow areas on Natural England's CRoW maps.

Scotland has great laws regarding this....

Martin
14-02-2012, 01:43 PM
I camp on National Trust land but very slealthy and if I am caught and asked to move on I do so theres no point in having cross words as I know Im in the wrong but I state Im looking after the wild life as Ive heard bad things are happening!
There are worse crimes than wild camping but it is still a crime!

To be honest, it's probably NOT a crime, although it could be, but is trespassing which is a civil matter.

Martin

Kernowek Scouser
15-02-2012, 01:07 PM
I've just been having a look at this map (http://www.dartmoor.co.uk/xsdbimgs/wild_camping_map_0711.pdf) of Dartmoor and there seems to be a fair bit of land where you can wild camp.

As I'm only across the border in Cornwall, I think a legal wild camping adventure is definitely on the cards, in the near future :D

Silverback
15-02-2012, 01:33 PM
To be honest, it's probably NOT a crime, although it could be, but is trespassing which is a civil matter.

Martin

http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html#tres

As applied to a piece of land open to the public which is not common land, open access land, or a public right of way. This is also one area where the laws of England and Scotland are significantly different. It is against the law to trespass on any land (and inland that includes land covered by water such as rivers or lakes) or in any building. Ignorance of that fact is no defence under this law. The word trespass covers much more than people usually realise. All land in this country belongs to someone. If you go on to land without the owner's permission, you are trespassing unless there is some right of access for the public, or for you specifically (for example if you have acquired a right to pass over the land to reach some land of your own).

Any person can enter a place if the landowners permit it. However, this does not necessarily make a permanent right of access, and unless they have dedicated a bit of land to be permanently open it is within the power of the landowner to ask any person to leave, assuming that person does not have some other lawful reason to be there. The landowner does not have to give a reason. If the person does not go immediately, by the shortest practical route, then they are trespassing. Despite the well known sign ‘trespassers will be prosecuted’, trespass is not a criminal offence and trespassers cannot usually be prosecuted. They can, however, be sued. There is little chance of such a matter ever being so serious as to be worth suing over, and so this rarely happens.

People in a park will often protest (if asked to leave) that it is public land. However the ownership of the land is not relevant. Even if the land is owned by a public body, such as the local council, this does not mean necessarily that they have a right to be on it at all times - they do not. If the place closes at a certain time and a visitor remains after that time, they can then be considered to be trespassing. If a visitor misbehaves at any time and refuses to leave when asked to do so by someone with a right to do so (usually the landowner or a representative) then the visitor could becomes a trespasser because they no longer have the landowner's permission to be there, even if they entered legally. Note: this also gives landowners the absolute right to close off paths (other than rights of way), and areas without notice or explanation.

This law is of little practical use but might be employed when arguing with more reasonable people. It does not apply to people on a public footpathPages marked with this symbol are exclusively written for Naturenet or other right of way, or on open access land. The problem is that if someone is trespassing, they are unlikely to comply with a polite request to leave, and if they then do not, the landowner has little if any further recourse. Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 allows the senior police officer attending the scene of an incident involving a trespass or nuisance on land to order trespassers to leave the land and to remove their vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable. The power can only be used when there are two or more people there and "are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, [and] that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave" and either the trespassers have six or more vehicles between them, or they have caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour - or both. So really it's not likely to cover anything other than a major invasion. This power is not often used, but for practical purposes this is the only instance where you might get the police to come and actually remove trespassers from a bit of land.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/part/V

I have heard through a reasonably reliable source that the National Trust are allowing wild camping on some of its land

Edwin
15-02-2012, 01:46 PM
Endless repetition of what we all know. Be discrete, be polite, begone in due time and there should be few problems. If I do not know if someone has camped in my bit of wood why would I worry? I think I can even spare some dead wood as well for a no trace fire. Pity really that I will never know what extra enjoyment my wood has given to someone.

Martin
15-02-2012, 02:36 PM
http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html#tres

As applied to a piece of land open to the public which is not common land, open access land, or a public right of way. This is also one area where the laws of England and Scotland are significantly different. It is against the law to trespass on any land (and inland that includes land covered by water such as rivers or lakes) or in any building. Ignorance of that fact is no defence under this law. The word trespass covers much more than people usually realise. All land in this country belongs to someone. If you go on to land without the owner's permission, you are trespassing unless there is some right of access for the public, or for you specifically (for example if you have acquired a right to pass over the land to reach some land of your own).

Any person can enter a place if the landowners permit it. However, this does not necessarily make a permanent right of access, and unless they have dedicated a bit of land to be permanently open it is within the power of the landowner to ask any person to leave, assuming that person does not have some other lawful reason to be there. The landowner does not have to give a reason. If the person does not go immediately, by the shortest practical route, then they are trespassing. Despite the well known sign ‘trespassers will be prosecuted’, trespass is not a criminal offence and trespassers cannot usually be prosecuted. They can, however, be sued. There is little chance of such a matter ever being so serious as to be worth suing over, and so this rarely happens.

People in a park will often protest (if asked to leave) that it is public land. However the ownership of the land is not relevant. Even if the land is owned by a public body, such as the local council, this does not mean necessarily that they have a right to be on it at all times - they do not. If the place closes at a certain time and a visitor remains after that time, they can then be considered to be trespassing. If a visitor misbehaves at any time and refuses to leave when asked to do so by someone with a right to do so (usually the landowner or a representative) then the visitor could becomes a trespasser because they no longer have the landowner's permission to be there, even if they entered legally. Note: this also gives landowners the absolute right to close off paths (other than rights of way), and areas without notice or explanation.

This law is of little practical use but might be employed when arguing with more reasonable people. It does not apply to people on a public footpathPages marked with this symbol are exclusively written for Naturenet or other right of way, or on open access land. The problem is that if someone is trespassing, they are unlikely to comply with a polite request to leave, and if they then do not, the landowner has little if any further recourse. Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 allows the senior police officer attending the scene of an incident involving a trespass or nuisance on land to order trespassers to leave the land and to remove their vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable. The power can only be used when there are two or more people there and "are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, [and] that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave" and either the trespassers have six or more vehicles between them, or they have caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour - or both. So really it's not likely to cover anything other than a major invasion. This power is not often used, but for practical purposes this is the only instance where you might get the police to come and actually remove trespassers from a bit of land.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/part/V

I have heard through a reasonably reliable source that the National Trust are allowing wild camping on some of its land

Pretty much, in a nutshell, what I said. It could be a criminal matter (probably isn't) but is trespassing if you camp on someone's land without permission, which is a civil matter. In other words, if they're not happy about what you're doing they would have to persue you for damages through the civil courts. Providing you don't damage anything and they can't really claim and it would be very unlikely that they would have a claim for punitive damages.

As Edwin says, as long as you're discrete, polite if challenged and leave early if you're not, then you will have no problem. Be prepared to buy the land owner a drink if you are challenged and all should be fine.

This is a topic that will come up over and over again as new people join the forum looking, as I did, for opportunities for wild camping. I am more than happy to discuss this as often as people want to ask the question. :)

Martin

Silverback
15-02-2012, 03:38 PM
Endless repetition of what we all know.

NO Edwin Not everone knows which is why like Martin I will go to the time trouble and effort of explaining the situation and finding the legal links to support that. Unless of course there could be a Q + A section on the site addressing the most common asked questions..where to camp, which knife, sleeping bag, cooker, undies, newspaper, dog. Lets face it Ashley's intention with the site is to be a free information portal for all to share.

Also if you take the time to read to the bottom of my post you will see that allegedly and I have it from a VERY reliable source to be honest the National Trust is going to allow Wild Camping on some of its land - which is good news for all concerned.

Lastly a word to the wise have a look at this post from West Yorkshire Police Air Support unit - a rude awakening I dont doubt http://twitter.com/WYPHelicopter

WY Police Helicopter
@WYPHelicopter WY Police Helicopter
29/01 0205hrs Attended Holme Moss mast, Huddersfield, after people seen acting suspiciously nearby. 2 males located camping in the snow!
29 Jan via web

Edwin
15-02-2012, 04:07 PM
And the police could and did take no action or did they? Where are the court reports, the arraingments, the trial, the sentences? Unlike the shed burglars on the allotments I presume. The police will check out things, its in their nature and generally to our benefit.

Silverback
15-02-2012, 04:45 PM
And the police could and did take no action or did they? Where are the court reports, the arraingments, the trial, the sentences?.

Have you read the date ? If it went to court then the date would be months from that date.

The point is that the '2 males' were obviously seen by someone who obviously thought it was 'suspicious' enough to call the Police. West Yorkshire Police obviously thought it suspicious enough to send a multi million pound helicopter and 3 person crew, costing circa 500 an hour to run to investigate. These days its getting more and more difficult not to be seen in our fair isle.

Lastly and this is my last comment to on the matter. I know the Police check out things generally to our benefit....I work alongside them, in fact it is they who call on our services from time to time..generally to the benefit of the public.

Edwin
15-02-2012, 05:16 PM
And the answer is so what? Not the fault of the innocent if an action is taken by a third party. Around here the Coastguard call it a "false alarm with good intent" Your "point" is nonsense if you want to imply that generally wild camping is a crime which was the point of this exchange. Police have been in action around many towns because idiots called them on seeing children playing with "guns" in the street but the children bear no responsibility whatsoever.

jus_young
15-02-2012, 05:23 PM
:oops: its starting to go off topic.

The question has really been answered as best as it can. The only other thing I can say is 'If in doubt... ask'

Silverback
15-02-2012, 06:17 PM
Edwin, I wasnt pointing out ANY illegality. I suggest you re read my posts.

The info i found was to HELP and ADVISE in the spirit of this forum. Guns in the streets and breaking into allotments bears NO relevance to this discussion.

You are being argumentative again as is the norm for you on any subjects with a legal issue and I refuse from this point on to engage with you any further on this subject.

Kernowek Scouser
15-02-2012, 07:17 PM
I have a question for the group in general.

At the moment my adventures are limited to where I can walk or get public transport to and from, so if a fella had a mind to try wild camping on the parts of Dartmoor where it is allowed, where would you suggest he head for to start such an adventure?

Edwin
15-02-2012, 08:51 PM
Many times on this board people have have mentioned problems arising from the perceptions of others whether it be carrying knives or wild camping. Sometimes these misapprehensions mean a police intervention. But we do not live in Police state and the rule of law is paramount. When we are wild camping we are protected by that law even if we have committed trespass only against the landowner or infringed a by-law. We do not need the message that one had better not do something just in case it might be against the law, generally unspecified.

Roadkillphil
15-02-2012, 09:53 PM
Ok, this is purely a suggestion, not an intention to raise any hackles, and I am suggesting this to all members on all parts of the forum. If you find yourself having conflicting opinions with other members and things start to drift off topic a little, maybe it would be wise to re read the post you are about to publish and consider taking up the disagreement via PM if the post is not really beneficial to the progress of the thread, or, after re reading the post you have the slightest suspicion that it may be seen as being argumentative.
Let's keep these discussions friendly and if you feel the need to get on one, let's not do it in front of the entire world.
Like I said, this a friendly suggestion

Thanks for reading

Silverback
15-02-2012, 10:01 PM
Like I said, this a friendly suggestion

Taken as meant, and actioned.

Maybe a place to visit on the forum with commonly asked questions such as access issues would be a good idea ? It would avoid unneccesary repetition of subject matter

Edwin
15-02-2012, 10:13 PM
Sensible suggestion

kesom
25-03-2012, 11:21 PM
http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html#tres

The problem is that if someone is trespassing, they are unlikely to comply with a polite request to leave, and if they then do not, the landowner has little if any further recourse. Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 allows the senior police officer attending the scene of an incident involving a trespass or nuisance on land to order trespassers to leave the land and to remove their vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable. The power can only be used when there are two or more people there and "are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, [and] that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave" and either the trespassers have six or more vehicles between them, or they have caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour - or both. So really it's not likely to cover anything other than a major invasion. This power is not often used, but for practical purposes this is the only instance where you might get the police to come and actually remove trespassers from a bit of land.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/part/V

I have heard through a reasonably reliable source that the National Trust are allowing wild camping on some of its land
i know a bit about law and basically any act is not a law,you can only be responsible for breaking an act if you agree to it other than that were are governed by common law which every policeman swears an oath to uphold and that basically is to protect the public from damage,injury or theft,that is all the police force has the real power to do unless they can trick you into an admiralty law case which is basically working for private companies,you can enter into cotract with them by simply saying your name
if i was approached by a police man out camping,i'd ask him was he there under his oath and had i broke any common laws before he even got a name from me and if he mentioned the P.O.A. to me i'd tell him he's not withholding his oath and i do not have to abide by any act without my consent and if they approached me i would consider it an assault and tell them i will leave in the morning without a trace and would give them my contact details if the land owner discovered after my departure any damage,theft or injury by me that they could deal with me with the full length of the law but i will not abide by act conjured up by parliament to bleed people dry,the police are given the impression they have a lot more power than they really do with all these illegal acts that they think are law,i dont blame the bobby on the street i blame the institution for not educating them on what they should really be doing,its all just unlawful,every act that has been brought in even the good ones,we dont have to stand by them

camp were ya like its our world not theirs ;)

peace ken :)