Calling all BUshcrafters!! I need help!!

[AdrianRose]

Hi folks

I have spoken to one of the mods and he has agreed that it is ok for me to post this thread here. I did ask permission because I feel that the following subject could be quite emotive and may lead to some debate.

I would ask first that in deference to the nature of this superb forum and the equally superb members, we try to keep things adult and friendly.

Ok, so here goes,

I have been asked to give a presentation to the Police Wildlife Crime Unit, this meeting is a multi-disciplinary meeting consisting of myself, the Police, the RSPCA and a couple of other interested organisations.

The purpose of the meeting is to see how the Bushcraft Community can assist the Police in combating wildlife crime such as poaching, badger baiting, damage to property/land, theft of wild flowers/birds eggs, etc etc

Before I go any further, it is worth pointing out that the super-intendant that invited me to attend this meeting was keen to stress that this was not an underhanded way of "catching out" the bushcraft community, he stated that he is more than aware that a lot of the bushcraft fraternity partake in "wildcamping/stealth camping" in private woodland - but he has no interest in this at all!!

Instead, he feels that the bushcraft community are currently an "un-tapped" resource that could aid the fight against wild life crime. We could essentially be the eyes out and boots on the ground help that the Wildlife Crime unit really need.

How many of us have come across abandoned camps, burnt out parts of woodland, broken beer bottles, food packets etc etc in our favourite woodland?!?! This could be our way of trying to stop it.

Now I am no expert at all, so I am asking you guys and gals for your opinions. If you had a chance to say something to the police about trying to help out the woodland/wildlife that as bushcrafters we all cherish, what would it be?


Do you have any suggestions that they could look at?

Do you know of any local hotspots where wildlife crime, poaching etc happens on a regular basis?

How about a centralised number to call incase you want to report something?

Could we work with the police and rural land/woodland owners to allow us a granted access to their land to camp on in return for us being an extra pair of eyes to watch their land?
etc etc

Could Bushcrafters across the country assist with training the police with tracking/animal sign, locations of poachable animals, badgers etc?

Also, I could do with some facts and figures to present at the meeting such as the popularity growth of Bushcraft in Britain, how many bushcrafters are there in the country? etc However, my google-fu is weak and I can't find this info as yet.

Does anybody here have any connections with bushcraft/wilderness shows that could offer up there attendance numbers over the last couple of years so that I can see the percentage growth in numbers etc.

Please let me know if you can help, offer advice, suggestions, facts, figures etc etc

I would VERY MUCH welcome your educated opinions and help on this subject prior to my meeting at the end of this month.

All the best
Ade

[Adam Savage]

Sounds like a good move.

I personally think, bushcrafter simply wild camping/stealth camping in areas could deter a good many of these incidents. Teenagers aren't going to cause trouble near a bunch of grown men with sharp objects are they lol.

Also being in the area often, whether it be wild camping, walking, skills honing, etc, we can alert the authorities of any problems sooner.

The trouble comes when the teenagers dress like bushcrafters, and tell passers by they are bushcrating. It would be hard to differentiate between good crafters and trouble makers.

Adam

[Richie]

I don't wish to sound cynical here, but I think the police on the ground could do a lot to repair relations with genuine bushcrafters before asking for their help.
If I was to report an incident I witnessed at the time I would expect little interest or response and if anyone did attend I would expect them to be interrogating me before removing any expensive sharps from my person.

Many bushcrafters carry a camera these days and I would be happy to submit a report along with pictures of the offenders "after" the event (I would intervene myself at the time), but I don't trust their judgment enough to do more than that.
And that's coming from an ex-police officer myself!

[saxonaxe]

And so Mr Bushcrafter..
When you saw my client allegedly damaging the trees, you were in fact trespassing yourself, armed with an axe and a knife and you had been lighting fires on the private property I understand? As a trespasser you had no legal reason to be carrying such items and now you are telling the court it was my client who damaged the trees....I suggest..

They'll be tears if someone doesn't get a grip before a Voluntary Bushcraft Force is formed. Good intentions I know, but will definitely need a lot of fine tuning.

[BJ]

On the face of it, you would think it a reasonable idea. looking at the trend in the two answers so far I can see that there is too much genuine concern that any help offered would meet with some suspicion on the part of the authorities. I would be very reluctant to act as an intelligence gatherer in this manner. We "Bushcrafters" are already stewards of the land and often do more to protect it than the statutory bodies. IMHO.

[rossbird]

The principle is a worthy one Ade, I can see how this could be beneficial to both parties. A closer relationship with the Police is something I would encourage in general.
However, the question is, will the police play "fair". There is a guy on another forum, who was stopped recently without a good reason and had his knife confiscated.
I know of a person locally who contacted the Police, when he witnessed a guy with terriers digging what appeared to be a Badger sett. They said they couldn`t respond, even though the digging was still taking place.
This does not mean I am against co-operation Ade, I just feel there are possibilities of things going wrong for Bushcrafters. I would be looking for for a pretty cast iron agreement, before I could feel comfortable.
I would say, go to the meeting, tell the police of the worries we have and then take things very slowly
Look forward to your thoughts after the meeting.
Good Luck
Tony

[Stamp]

There is a huge difference between a couple of friends (adult or teenagers) camping in the woods to a group of kids having a huge fire and substance abusing!

I have settled down for the night twice last year only to be woken by a rave going on all night! Or in a community woodland that I work in, be passed by kids smoking substances.

I for one would be happy to contact the authorities if I found anything serious going on. I've never come across any wildlife crimes, but I wouldn't think twice about confronting anyone at anytime (although the wife tells me off for doing so!). The police have limited resources to combat these crimes and if we could help I'm sure the majority would be happy to help.

I couldn't say really about numbers of bushcrafters, but it appears to me that our past time has reduced in numbers participating over the last few years (just an observation).

I would ask how we stand as trespassers? Its not a criminal offence as I understand it but could our evidence be used as we should not be there ourselves?

I know a few of use who are less lawful than others, maybe we should be more willing to look within our own community and report those who commit crimes in the woods? I am sure there are very few though.....

[Adam Savage]

Trespassing only becomes an offense after you have be asked to move on/get out, unless it is in relation to certain circumstances. However, is you are found to have caused damage to property while trespassing, it becomes burglary (sounds strange, but it's true). This carries a hefty sentence if the courts see fit.

As to any evidence you obtain/provide (video, witness reports, etc), I'm not sure how the courts would see this. It could well be seen as unlawfully obtained, therefor inadmissible in any legal proceedings. Although in real life, it would actually help the attending officers to make a decision.

[Silverback]

In principle its a very good idea, i know folks who have been involved with training the police in tracking and such tactics, and have been active as many of you know on more than one or two missing persons searches but a word to the wise......there is always the prospect of disturbing people with more sinister motives, the 7/7 terrorists were known to have camped and practiced in the Lakes and Peak District, they may not take kindly to being found out/discovered.

We can surely though drop intelligence on badger digging, nest raiding etc

Like Adam says there are strict rules on what is admissible as evidence and another word to the wise...take pics of stuff on your camera phone at your peril, the Police have the power to seize evidence..that may very well include all devices used or at the very least your SD Cards

[saxonaxe]

Interesting point about the numbers of Bushcrafters. Not long ago I telephoned a supplier about some kit and explained I'd phoned before ordering just in case he was out of stock. Basically he said words to the effect.." Those days are over, we don't sell so much as we used to, the Bushcraft demand has dropped right off"

I also believe some Bushcraft courses are not as booked up as they perhaps once were. Perhaps weather has an effect on attendances?
I don't own a television, but are there still Bushcraft programmes shown, or are they more of the old wildlife type.

As I understand it, a trespasser could be called as a witness, but if the defendant has a few bob( or rich parents) who will pay for a decent defence then the witness as a trespasser himself may well find his evidence being questioned by the defence..to put it mildly..