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Thread: Chemtrails

  1. #71
    One with Nature CanadianMike's Avatar
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    Wow, that's 20 years old (most in your second link are 1990s vintage too)!!

    Lol, yes I'm aware that there was discussions and studies on the effects of spraying reflective aerosols in the atmosphere in order to try to combat the threat of global warming, but that was the early stages of it (hence the date) before they learned more about natural climate change, is why they haven't been doing it the past decade or so. Besides, I'm not denying that studies like this exist, I'm more arguing against the entire culture of every airline in the world is spraying chemicals for the purpose of <whatever>, which is what the chemtrail religion is about. Enough info and sense has been made of why contrails are wider and longer lasting, it's not a chemical spraying conspiracy like is widely written, unless it's an amount of something added to every liter of jet fuel in the word. New conspiracy I guess.

  2. #72
    They were doing it to offset climate change. Says so in the report. That means they knew about it at least 20 years ago. They are reports of it being done and from the way it is worded, to carry on being done. Who says they stopped? If they knew the climate was changing, why "would" they stop? Especially as the report says, it was working.

    Not all planes release chemtrails, only some. I've seen four or five planes in the sky at once, at roughly the same altitude, some spraying, some not. Some had normal contrails which dissapeared in under a minute, others had chemtrails which were there hours later and forming a haze over everything. Heres another thing, that id like you to answer. Some of the chemtrails, if you watch them, stop and start, each section doing the usual chemtrail routine. Now if they were contrails, then that means the engines have gone too cold to form condensation, but hot again 10 seconds later or more, then cold again etc. Have the engines shut down then? Perhaps stopping and starting?. I very much doubt that bit.

    Suggesting every airline and every culture to be doing the same is a bit Reductio ad absurdum to be fair, with a bit of logical fallacy thrown in for good measure.
    Last edited by HillBill; 26-06-2012 at 09:58 PM.

  3. #73
    One with Nature CanadianMike's Avatar
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    Actually the starting and stopping is due to the variable humidity in the atmosphere up there. Humidity at 70% minimum creates contrails, and the way winds are, air movement, etc. is a pretty easy easy one to understand, some areas will create condensation from the engines, some will not. We've experienced it just recently, testing biofuel above 30,000ft with our T-33 following us collecting air samples and measuring various emissions, Anthony (T-33 pilot) prefers contrails so it's easier for him to target the exhaust and get the pods into it to sample, a couple flights he's told us over the radio that we are contrailing, to hold speed and altitude, and has told us the contrailing has stopped, so we'll circle back around to the same area to continue testing if that's what he wants.

    Regarding the 'trying to stop climate change' argument, no one totally knows what causes it over the millenia (natural, but we won't go there) or how to stop or slow it (we can't), so they are just grasping at straws really, of course the sun is the biggest cause of cycles (including seasons), so obviously they'd devise means of reducing some of the light that enters the atmosphere. Which would kinda make sense considering the polar ice cap is melting due to the black soot deposits that flow over and up from China and Russia, less white snow, less reflected light, more heating.

    Overall I can't say what some of the governments over there and south of me are doing on a regular basis, all my main arguments are about contrails being wider and longer lasting now that a couple decades ago, and that the things you describe, forming clouds and heavy zigzag patterns I never see over here, even though we get most of the European traffic flow going to Toronto and the US travelling north and south of us. BTW, that's another thing we do with our T-33 is wake vortex and emissions testing of various in and outbound aircraft from all over the world. The only differences are the types of wake characteristics various models of aircraft produce, emissions are less variable (same fuel for the most part), just amounts to the efficiencies of the engines, how much fuel doesn't get burned vs what does get burned. Is kinda like one article I read, claimed at one point that the chemtrails being sprayed have aromatic hydrocarbons in them, when in reality, aromatic hydrocarbons are part of the fuel make up, it helps keep the various seals in the fuel lines from drying out. What they are claiming is false, it's just about make up of fuel first, then what is left unburned after, along with the water vapour formed by hydrogen in the fuel and oxygen in the atmosphere combining, as well as atmospheric humidity.

  4. #74
    Natural Born Bushcrafter MikeWilkinson's Avatar
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    Hi Mike, interesting articles, they further confirm that the increase in air traffic and improvements in engine technology are largely responsible for the dramatic visuals created by Con-trails.

    Sorry Bill, but Aerosol Climate Forcing has nothing to do with spraying of chemicals/compounds or biologicals. The term is used to describe the effect of deflecting and absorption of solar radiation from the sun due to particle matter present in the atmosphere from your basic pollutants - green house gases, industrial emissions, dust from desert storms, smoke from volcanoes, general clouds, etc... The Study of ACF is used to predict future climate change.
    The term Aerosol in this case is the scientific term for a colloid suspension of fine solid particles or liquid droplets in a gas - Clouds!!!!!
    Anthroprogenic Aerosol Climate forcing is the study of just man made pollutants and there effect on the deflection and absorption of Solar radiation.

    Damn..... I said I wasn't going to get involved any further.... Poo, Poo, Poo!

    Incidently, did you read any of the articles from your Google search, they all confirm the above.

    Damn.... I'm doing it again. May I ask a moderator to block this thread as it a)has absolutely nothing to do with bushcraft and b)for nerds like me is an itch that you just can't help scratching and is distracting me from the more important topic of bushcraft.
    [SIZE=4][COLOR=#8b4513]Wake me up when things are over, and I'm Wiser and older.

  5. #75
    One with Nature CanadianMike's Avatar
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    Lol, has been an itch for me for days, although an educational one, especially for something that is part of my project knowledge at work. Whether HillBill and I end up agreeing on something or not, the constant of his persistance and making me look deep in the basics of stuff, avoiding politics, environmentalist whackos, the "blame the government because I don' know what it is, if they deny it they prove me right!" crowd....... overall have enjoyed this, but has caused a few too many folds amongst some here, and distractions to others. Literally has been a debate between Mark and I, which really has exhausted itself and shouldn't take up any more pages than this one, after Mark pops on and says his bit (don't want to lock the thread until he has his finishing argument, wouldn't be a gentleman if that happened.)

    Cheers, thanks for the time and tolerance to let us have about it all, was a real learning experience for me, and the new knowledge gained is beneficial to me in my work on aerospace emissions testing, and to better understand my crazy Tazmanian testpilot/facility manager/data anazlyzer (as well as Environment Canada scientists) Anthony Brown (look back at some of the first links I posted, all are NRC related, his name is on most).

    Cheers!

    Mike

  6. #76
    Some reports of Chemtrails over canada here.

    http://www.alive.com/articles/view/1...cret_confirmed

    Yep, climate change is natural, be hard to be man made when all the planets in our solar system are going through the same changes, dont buy that man made carp for a second. Best not get me started on anything involving history and such, we'd be here forever lol.

    Another article here which seems to contradict the report i posted earlier
    http://www.gizmag.com/solar-geoengin...r-skies/22777/
    Using advanced models, Ben Kravitz and Ken Caldeira from the Carnegie Institution of Science and Douglas MacMartin from the California Institute of Technology, examined what would happen to the color and brightness of the sky if sulfate-based aerosols were placed into the stratosphere.

    Why would they examine what would happen "IF" sulfate aerosols were placed in the atmosphere? They know exactly what will happen as they have already been doing it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianMike View Post
    Actually the starting and stopping is due to the variable humidity in the atmosphere up there. Humidity at 70% minimum creates contrails, and the way winds are, air movement, etc. is a pretty easy easy one to understand, some areas will create condensation from the engines, some will not. We've experienced it just recently, testing biofuel above 30,000ft with our T-33 following us collecting air samples and measuring various emissions, Anthony (T-33 pilot) prefers contrails so it's easier for him to target the exhaust and get the pods into it to sample, a couple flights he's told us over the radio that we are contrailing, to hold speed and altitude, and has told us the contrailing has stopped, so we'll circle back around to the same area to continue testing if that's what he wants.

    Regarding the 'trying to stop climate change' argument, no one totally knows what causes it over the millenia (natural, but we won't go there) or how to stop or slow it (we can't), so they are just grasping at straws really, of course the sun is the biggest cause of cycles (including seasons), so obviously they'd devise means of reducing some of the light that enters the atmosphere. Which would kinda make sense considering the polar ice cap is melting due to the black soot deposits that flow over and up from China and Russia, less white snow, less reflected light, more heating.

    Overall I can't say what some of the governments over there and south of me are doing on a regular basis, all my main arguments are about contrails being wider and longer lasting now that a couple decades ago, and that the things you describe, forming clouds and heavy zigzag patterns I never see over here, even though we get most of the European traffic flow going to Toronto and the US travelling north and south of us. BTW, that's another thing we do with our T-33 is wake vortex and emissions testing of various in and outbound aircraft from all over the world. The only differences are the types of wake characteristics various models of aircraft produce, emissions are less variable (same fuel for the most part), just amounts to the efficiencies of the engines, how much fuel doesn't get burned vs what does get burned. Is kinda like one article I read, claimed at one point that the chemtrails being sprayed have aromatic hydrocarbons in them, when in reality, aromatic hydrocarbons are part of the fuel make up, it helps keep the various seals in the fuel lines from drying out. What they are claiming is false, it's just about make up of fuel first, then what is left unburned after, along with the water vapour formed by hydrogen in the fuel and oxygen in the atmosphere combining, as well as atmospheric humidity.

  7. #77
    Aye, seems we are going round in circles now. Lets drop it then, im sure some other thread will pop up at some point in which we can civilly cross swords.

    All the best Mike n Mike.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianMike View Post
    Lol, has been an itch for me for days, although an educational one, especially for something that is part of my project knowledge at work. Whether HillBill and I end up agreeing on something or not, the constant of his persistance and making me look deep in the basics of stuff, avoiding politics, environmentalist whackos, the "blame the government because I don' know what it is, if they deny it they prove me right!" crowd....... overall have enjoyed this, but has caused a few too many folds amongst some here, and distractions to others. Literally has been a debate between Mark and I, which really has exhausted itself and shouldn't take up any more pages than this one, after Mark pops on and says his bit (don't want to lock the thread until he has his finishing argument, wouldn't be a gentleman if that happened.)



    Cheers, thanks for the time and tolerance to let us have about it all, was a real learning experience for me, and the new knowledge gained is beneficial to me in my work on aerospace emissions testing, and to better understand my crazy Tazmanian testpilot/facility manager/data anazlyzer (as well as Environment Canada scientists) Anthony Brown (look back at some of the first links I posted, all are NRC related, his name is on most).

    Cheers!

    Mike

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